NY Times - Five Minutes That Will Make You Love Jazz Piano

[Brad]

The Times has been doing this series Five Minutes that will make you love this or that type of music where musicians and experts offer their suggestions. They did one on bop last year.

Today’s edition is on jazz piano.  Glaring omissions: Tatum, Ellington and Bud. The comments are observations on who was left out and make for interesting reading.

5 Minutes That Will Make You Love Jazz Piano

Here’s the bop one.

5 Minutes That Will Make You Love Bebop

“Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Bud Powell: They altered the course of American music and raised the bar for improvisation. Listen to 10 experts’ favorites.”

[AllenLowe]

I have been trying to ignore this series, which is really called "5 Minutes That Will Make You Realize the New York Times has Become Utterly Culturally Irrelevant."

[Eric]

5 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

I have been trying to ignore this series, which is really called "5 Minutes That Will Make You Realize the New York Times has Become Utterly Culturally Irrelevant."

LOL

[Brad]

25 minutes ago, Eric said:

LOL

+ 1. 

[Teasing the Korean]

Five Hours That Will Make You Love Existentialism, with Hazel Barnes.

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by Teasing the Korean

[Dan Gould]

1 hour ago, AllenLowe said:

I have been trying to ignore this series, which is really called "5 Minutes That Will Make You Realize the New York Times has Become Utterly Culturally Irrelevant."

Tell that to Loren on FB. I made a point about how 30 second clips can't demonstrate anything and he believes this sort of thing is crucial these days for promoting jazz.

[HutchFan]

A few years ago, my then-boss asked me to put together a 30-minute presentation on business communications for our company.  Upon reviewing it, the first thing she wanted to do was change the title of my basic, rinky-dink presentation to something like Mastering the Art of Business Communications.  I laughed and said, "Mastering something takes a much, much longer time than just 30 minutes!!!"

I think "falling in love" with something takes longer than five minutes too.  Especially something as complicated and wonderful and DEEP as jazz!

So here's my take: In both cases, the ideas aren't bad -- but the titles are absurd.

 

1 minute ago, Dan Gould said:

Tell that to Loren on FB. I made a point about how 30 second clips can't demonstrate anything and he believes this sort of thing is crucial these days for promoting jazz.

Wow.  30 seconds!  That's nuts.

Maybe you can sell beer or cars or mobile phone service in 30 seconds.  Jazz... I don't think so.

 

[Brad]

Ethan Iverson’s take.

https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-223-jazz-piano-for-all?r=b9oem&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

[HutchFan]

25 minutes ago, Brad said:

Ethan Iverson’s take.

https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-223-jazz-piano-for-all?r=b9oem&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

I like the phrase that Iverson uses to describe these sorts of things: "Gateway Drug."  Of course, that's got some negative connotations -- but it also puts across what these sorts of lists are supposed to do: Offer an easy path for drawing in newbies.

 

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, Brad said:

Ethan Iverson’s take.

https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-223-jazz-piano-for-all?r=b9oem&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post

Very interesting and much more rewarding than the very idea of managing a useful newbie introduction into any new subject within 5 minutes. (Anyone wondering why the age-old U.S idea of "Get to know Europe within 48 hours" did NOT die the merciful death you had figured it had succumbed to decades ago? 😁)

But I am wondering about this:

"The complete absence of serious be-bop on my list is intentional. Most civilians need some basic exposure to the vibe before going in on Bud Powell or his children."

Is this really so? Bebop being that difficult? I am not at all sure if it was my exposure (certainly much more than basic) but there are quite a few 40s piano recordings by Dodo Marmarosa that I found immediately accessible and catchy.
OK, so some might say Dodo "isn't one of the all-time greatest of greats, so ..." but still ... the music speaks for itself so IMO to the unknowing any "gateway drug" introduction that catches their ears should do.

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[sgcim]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:56 AM, AllenLowe said:

I have been trying to ignore this series, which is really called "5 Minutes That Will Make You Realize the New York Times has Become Utterly Culturally Irrelevant."

Well said! They don't give a sh-t about jazz.

[T.D.]

8 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Very interesting and much more rewarding than the very idea of managing a useful newbie introduction into any new subject within 5 minutes. (Anyone wondering why the age-old U.S idea of "Get to know Europe within 48 hours" did NOT die the merciful death you had figured it had succumbed to decades ago? 😁)

But I am wondering about this:

"The complete absence of serious be-bop on my list is intentional. Most civilians need some basic exposure to the vibe before going in on Bud Powell or his children."

Is this really so? Bebop being that difficult? I am not at all sure if it was my exposure (certainly much more than basic) but there are quite a few 40s piano recordings by Dodo Marmarosa that I found immediately accessible and catchy.
OK, so some might say Dodo "isn't one of the all-time greatest of greats, so ..." but still ... the music speaks for itself so IMO to the unknowing any "gateway drug" introduction that catches their ears should do.

 

[Emphasis added] I agree. What really turned me on to bebop was discovering Tadd Dameron's compositions, and I still think that's a good entry point.

I'm paywalled from the NYT, and that's just as well, since the articles would only piss me off. I think those features are some odd combination of trolling and the author[s] striving to project as hipper than thou.

Edited March 7, 2023 by T.D.

[JSngry]

"Bebop" can be incredibly difficult music.

But usually it's not. Especially if you don't listen to all the details and just ride the vibe. 

But hey, sometimes Bird or Bud or Dizzy can play some shit that is going two or three places at once, and then... whoa...

Just my opinion, but when people started getting all chordy-scalar, the whole notion of "passing chords" got redefined, hell, maybe lost.

Too bad. 

 

[Gheorghe]

I couldn´t read the articles, because there was a pop up window that I have to subscribe now. 

 

I would have liked to read the experts opinion.

Bird Diz Bud, or Bird Fats Bud was my entry ticket to that music and it never seized to amaze me. 
The first time I heard Bud was when I bought that CBS Double Album "One Night at Birdland" and that´s the first time I really heard Bud. 

About Art Tatum, I think that was earlier. I think it was thru Jakie Byard when he played stride sections on Mingus live recordings. See , Jakie Byard was everything from history to new thing, like Dolphy on his instruments. So: I discovered Fats Waller and Art Tatum via Jakie Byard, and Bird via Eric Dolphy. And buying my first Bird LP (One Night at Birdland) I discovered Bud. 

[Big Beat Steve]

6 hours ago, T.D. said:

[Emphasis added] I agree. What really turned me on to bebop was discovering Tadd Dameron's compositions, and I still think that's a good entry point.

Actually I was thinking of Tadd Dameron too when I wrote my comment about Dodo Marmarosa but did not take the time to check out which of Dameron's recordings were really prominent piano features. I agree, though, that his compositions are a good entry point.

[Gheorghe]

2 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Actually I was thinking of Tadd Dameron too when I wrote my comment about Dodo Marmarosa but did not take the time to check out which of Dameron's recordings were really prominent piano features. I agree, though, that his compositions are a good entry point.

My entry in the music of Tadd Dameron was when I bought the Miles-Tadd album Paris 1949. At that time I didn´t know about many musicians, my "main men" were Miles and Mingus. I just saw it in the record store and bought it. 
There are also nice examples of Tadd playing piano solos, his treatment of "Don´t Blame me" and "Embraceable You" is wonderful ballad piano, and he is also strong on his chorusses of Good Bait, Wahoo and I think "All the Things You Are" (a John Lewis arrangement for the Dizzy Gillespie Big Band then). 
Then ....also browsing thru records I saw "Tadd Dameron - John Coltrane", which I bought and also liked.

Then I remember I told a class-mate who also was a budding jazz lover and artist, showed him my two albums and he stated "well I have not heard about him, but if he had played with Miles and with Trane, he must be a big chief".
 

soon afterwards I bought "Tadd Dameron-Fats Navarro" on Musidisc, this also has some nice solos by Tadd. 

I think many said "he couldn´t play very well" and plays an "arranger´s style" , but on Eb-Pob (I think a Savoy record) with Fats , he plays a very fluid bop solo that has some Bud and Monk influences in it....

And one TD composition has a special meaning to me "Hot House". I was still almost a kid when Allan Praskin was in town with some fast company and I was invited to sit in and they called "Hot House" and "you know the tune, kid ? " .......so this was my first playing with some masters of jazz......

[Big Beat Steve]

Yes, re- Dameron, all this is known. My entry to Tadd Dameron were his "Mating Call" LP (which to this day I correctly file as a Tadd Dameron and not as a John Coltrane LP - regardless of what reissuers out for a fast "name artist leader credits" buck pretended later on), and soon thereafter the "Miles Davis in Paris 1949" LP on CBS. And eventually, of course, the Dameron recordings featuring Fats Navarro which abound with his catchy phrases that a melodically creative musician should be able to spin on and on. All this is very accessible Bebop. To me, anyway. And these recordings are not the only ones. So I am not sure where Ethan Iverson is coming from.
All I was trying to point out, however, was that Tadd Dameron recordings of his own tunes where the paino is THE major featured instrument (to fit the discussion or samples here) did not come that immediately to my mind. Contrary to Dodo Marmarosa.

 

P.S. See the error of your budding jazz lover classmate? You say he claimed Dameron "played with Trane". Not so. If we are talking about "Mating Call", Trane played with HIM. Big difference. And honor to whom honor is due. I wonder anyhow which pressing got your classmate on the wrong track back then. Cannot have been the Prestige/Bellaphon 7745 pressing that was ubiquitous at the time. Nor previous issues/reissues (7070, 7247) in the Prestige catalog.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Gheorghe]

19 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Yes, re- Dameron, all this is known. My entry to Tadd Dameron were his "Mating Call" LP (which to this day I correctly file as a Tadd Dameron and not as a John Coltrane LP - regardless of what reissuers out for a fast "name artist leader credits" buck pretended later on), and soon thereafter the "Miles Davis in Paris 1949" LP on CBS. And eventually, of course, the Dameron recordings featuring Fats Navarro which abound with his catchy phrases that a melodically creative musician should be able to spin on and on. All this is very accessible Bebop. To me, anyway. And these recordings are not the only ones. So I am not sure where Ethan Iverson is coming from.
All I was trying to point out, however, was that Tadd Dameron recordings of his own tunes where the paino is THE major featured instrument (to fit the discussion or samples here) did not come that immediately to my mind. Contrary to Dodo Marmarosa.

 

P.S. See the error of your budding jazz lover classmate? You say he claimed Dameron "played with Trane". Not so. If we are talking about "Mating Call", Trane played with HIM. Big difference. And honor to whom honor is due. I wonder anyhow which pressing got your classmate on the wrong track back then. Cannot have been the Prestige/Bellaphon 7745 pressing that was ubiquitous at the time. Nor previous issues/reissues (7070, 7247) in the Prestige catalog.

The error was MINE ! I had told that class mate that "Dameron played with Miles and with Trane" though from the album cover it was clear that it was Tadd´s date and Trane was playing with HIM. Definitly right, but it is possible that during that time the names I knew and the names that would impress my class-mate was Miles, Trane, so I just may have told him about an  until then unknown musician Tadd Dameron in context with those two (Miles ´n Trane). 
Yes, I had a Prestige album with a red cover and a large picture of Tadd playing on piano. Later, when I didn´t have a pickup, I bought a CD with a cover with those birds on it . 

That classmate, after some nights of listening to records were we spinned also the "Blaue Dameron Platte" (the Musidisc),and  after some beers my classmate said "Dieser Dameron da von Dir, der is eh cool, der scheißt sich nix mit irgendwelchem Herumw.....sen mit 100.000 Noten wie der Ur-Streber Oscar Peterson. Der  Dameron setzt sich hin, spielt ein kleines Solo-chen und das ist cool!. ". 

That´s how we guys were then. Not much knowledge about who is the leader, naming records after the colour of the cover (die blaue Dameronplatte, die grüne Navarroplatte, die rote Miles Davis platte -- that was the italian "Kings of Jazz" )...... just the music and our learing the music was what counted. 

[Big Beat Steve]

Of  course, I understand ...
And no big deal back then ...
But seeing how often reissues - particularly in more recent times - reverse and alter the "leader" or "name" credits (in a rather superficial attention-grabbing effort) it's often a bit unfair to those who actually were the leaders. And it not only falsifies the history of the mujsic but IMO the full appreciation of the artists as well because it does help to be aware of who played what and at what stage of his careeer and development as a sideman (as opposed to his role as a leader).
As for the quote from your buddy : What would he have said about Art Tatum, then, I wonder?

 

[Gheorghe]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

1)  But seeing how often reissues - particularly in more recent times - reverse and alter the "leader" or "name" credits (in a rather superficial attention-grabbing effort) it's often a bit unfair to those who actually were the leaders. And it not only falsifies the history of the mujsic but IMO the full appreciation of the artists as well because it does help to be aware of who played what and at what stage of his careeer and development as a sideman (as opposed to his role as a leader).

2) As for the quote from your buddy : What would he have said about Art Tatum, then, I wonder?

 

ad 1) 100% agree !

ad 2) You will be surprised: He LOVED Art Tatum, and it was his mother who listened to Art Tatum for hours. So it is even possible that he became interested in jazz thru hearing that Art Tatum records. I also love Art Tatum and listen very very carefully to him. His renditions of songs, those incredible chord modulations, he intro´s , his gettin into the theme with that wonderful left hand stride with decimes in it. WONDERFUL !
Art Tatum is so important, a genius ! 

So it was not about if a pianist plays many notes and so on, it was "play something, but not just play, SAY something.

The tragic part of the story was, that my buddies mother was alcoolic and died in her early 50´s when he was 16, and at 17 he was a father...., well we were a weird bunch of guys then.....

Oscar Peterson somehow was considered a "Streber-Typ". My buddy ´n me we looked weird but were good students. I remember when it was for Abitur, that we had to do our clausur in Latin it was programmed for 5 hours (traducere of Tacitus) and we finished after an hour and drove with the motorcicly to a "Wirtshaus" to have some beers and schnitzel.....😄

[clifford_thornton]

Strangely, I haven't read "Five Minutes That Will Make Me Love the NYT."

[danasgoodstuff]

On 3/6/2023 at 8:42 AM, Big Beat Steve said:

Very interesting and much more rewarding than the very idea of managing a useful newbie introduction into any new subject within 5 minutes. (Anyone wondering why the age-old U.S idea of "Get to know Europe within 48 hours" did NOT die the merciful death you had figured it had succumbed to decades ago? 😁)

But I am wondering about this:

"The complete absence of serious be-bop on my list is intentional. Most civilians need some basic exposure to the vibe before going in on Bud Powell or his children."

Is this really so? Bebop being that difficult? I am not at all sure if it was my exposure (certainly much more than basic) but there are quite a few 40s piano recordings by Dodo Marmarosa that I found immediately accessible and catchy.
OK, so some might say Dodo "isn't one of the all-time greatest of greats, so ..." but still ... the music speaks for itself so IMO to the unknowing any "gateway drug" introduction that catches their ears should do.

 

I think all assumptions and received opinion re best entry points for newbies are questionable at best.  Depends on the person in question.

[John B Litweiler]

6 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

Strangely, I haven't read "Five Minutes That Will Make Me Love the NYT."

and because of that paywall, we'll never read those 5 minutes of NYT

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I haven't actually listened to the 5 minute presentation but from my point of view anything that promotes jazz listening is good.  Far be it from me to quibble about the choice of excerpts, etc.  If the NYT is going to promote jazz I like it.  I even swallowed my reservations when Ken Burns did his thing on jazz.  OK I hated it but it was promoting jazz, so you know, good, I guess...

edit: OK I listened to the excerpts, which were mostly 29 second sound clips.  Um, good, I guess?  I mean they had people like Andrew Hill and Ahmad Jamal.  I don't think those clips will make you love jazz.  But in this case any publicity is good publicity.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Brad]

The Times has done it again, with one on Mary Lou Williams.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/05/arts/music/mary-lou-williams-jazz-music.html