Billy Eckstine

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I'm in no way denigrating the musicians. Simply expressing my extreme dislike of their records and their presence in a Mosaic set.

Well, what does it say about the Mosaic clientele after all, then, if their records at least were not immediately singled out as selling poorly whereas - according to the Cuscuna quote earlier - the Sarah Vaughn and Dinah Washington sets DID sell poorly?
(And no, I am not the biggest Four Freshmen fan ever either )

Besides - your lobbying for Mr. X-tine is all very well and certainly totally honest in your intentions, but shouldn't you know better than this??
"That's no excuse on an Eckstine set. The released material is a finished product. From Hines through National, through MGM, through Mercury, through Roulette, it should all be there. Collate it, clean it up, get some good liner notes, and the set makes itself, I think. "

Look at past Mosaic boxes and judge for yourself how often lack of multi-label access to the reissue rights has been advanced as an excuse (or explanation) for a set NOT being comprehensive in the actual discographical sense of the word and how unlikely or unrealistic the ABOVE approach therefore would be for a project on Mosaic, of all labels, anyway, even if there were sufficient reissue interest to start with? 😕

 

BTW, and FWIW, talking about the "jazz content" of Mr B, any forumist in good ol' Europe (to keep shipping affordable) happen to have a vinyl of the below LP flying around that they want to unload?

https://www.discogs.com/de/release/3484446-Billy-Eckstine-Sings-With-George-Shearing-Quintet-Woody-Herman-And-His-OrchestraMetronome-All-Stars-

Years ago when I bought vinyl more regularly on U.S. eBay it happened every now and then that U.S. sellers used dud record covers as padding inside the record mailers. And one day a record arrived from the US with a fairly clean sleeve of the ABOVE one - of all Eckstine platters - inside the mailer as one of the padding layers! No record inside, of course, just the cover. Wonder what this dimwit of a seller was thinking ... Yes I might have used it as a music room wall decoration item, but still ...
 

Edited February 28, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Besides - your lobbying for Mr. X-tine is all very well and certainly totally honest in your intentions, but shouldn't you know better than this??
"That's no excuse on an Eckstine set. The released material is a finished product. From Hines through National, through MGM, through Mercury, through Roulette, it should all be there. Collate it, clean it up, get some good liner notes, and the set makes itself, I think. "

I stand by that  - the reasons given for no Joe Williams Roulette set was that there were a lot of unfinished takes and othe untangling of materials. This has no relevance to an Eckstine collection of already issued material..

As far as the multi-lbel thing - as it now stands (and has for some time) - MGM & Mercury have long been owned by the same people (and the Eckstine material sees release on various Verve Compilations), Along with Roulette, there should be no difficulty in combining the materials.

Earlier, Hines is RCA, right? Again, Mosiac does Victor. That leaves National, which ended up as Savoy which has ended up...someplace.

Point just being - there are "excuses", hell, probably sound financial reasons even, for not doing an Eckstine Mosaic. I think we can all see the direction Mosaic is heading. But the reasons given for the Joe Williams Mosaic not happening ain't them.

So the erasure continues. Probably unintentionally, but an accidental death is just as surely a death nevertheless.

Quincy Jones could probably make something happen. But he could probably make LOTS of things happen if he wanted to die broke (and he probably would if he did, that's how much that could/should be done).

[Big Beat Steve]

Don't know too exactly about Mosaic's present direction nor about the finer points of the licensing negotiations they would have to restart even with labels/congolomerates they have dealt with before, but would it be the Mosaic approach to look just at what has been released before and not looking sideways towards alternate or unreleased vault items at all - across all these labels?

Besides, not wanting to be too cynical, but at 90 and assuming he wanted to make the things happen that you may be alluding to, do you think Quincy Jones would be able to make THAT many things happen that he would risk dying broke with the (statistically remaining) mileage he has got left? 

So ... things apparently being the way they are, and looking at a "released master takes only" reissue package (according to your suggestions), what if, of all producers, Jordi Pujol happened to jump on the challenge? Would you renege on your hostility toward anything Fresh Sound and jump on the results, then?

They did repackage and cover the National grounds for a start, after all (and no, I won't comment on the strict correctness of the "Savoy" title of that package 😞
https://www.freshsoundrecords.com/billy-eckstine-albums/2374-complete-savoy-recordings-2-cd-set.html

BTW, looking at his discography and what you'd like to see covered, you forgot one label that should be included: his 1944 recordings for the DeLuxe label. "Only" 8 tracks from 2 sessions, but seminal items ... Particularly in between the Hines period and his National sessions. So where did DeLuxe ownership end up? With whoever now owns the King roster, I guess. Did Mosaic ever do King recordings?

[JSngry]

If Gorodi Pulholmes can get ALL of the MGM material stolen from Japan (if it's even there...) I'll hold my nose.

As far as Mosaic doing anything King...even in the best of times, probably not. 

My own sense of moral outrage at the usurpation of all things "jazz" by the unsavoriest of predators has calmed somewhat over the years with the gradual realization that we're all crooks and liars sooner or later if only at our worst moments, but dammit, Mosaic STILL owes the galactic forces of rightness for that The Four Fucking Freshmen set. Talk about an unrighted wrong with NO sign of regret or remorse whatsome ever, there one is. 

[jazzbo]

Mosaic has every right to do whatever set they wish and not to do any set they wish not to, and don't "owe" you anything. And that set sold well for them. Which allowed them to produce other sets. 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

They don't owe me. They owe the cosmos

[Justin V]

It's a cruel twist of fate that this discussion has been so active and the wonderful Eckstine-Basie album somehow never was ripped and uploaded to my YouTube music collection.  I'll have to spin it somehow soon.

[jazzbo]

55 minutes ago, JSngry said:

They don't owe me. They owe the cosmos

No they don't. Part of what puts people off jazz is this sort of thing that certain of it ought to be protected, enshrined.

[JSngry]

Life should be protected, not just jazz. Malevolent spirits are to be guarded against.

1 hour ago, Justin V said:

It's a cruel twist of fate that this discussion has been so active and the wonderful Eckstine-Basie album somehow never was ripped and uploaded to my YouTube music collection.  I'll have to spin it somehow soon.

That record is epic!

[Big Beat Steve]

38 minutes ago, JSngry said:

That record is epic!

Well, maybe, then, I ought to pick a copy up if one comes my way cheaply.
As mentioned in another thread a while ago, some years back I decided it was time to round up the Roulette Basie LPs (beyond the Atomic, Chairmen and Plays Hefti LPs I already owned), and within a short time most of them(French Vogue-Roulette reissues from the 80s) came my way at prrices too good to resist in a local shop's special offer bins. And the remaining 3 or 4 were bought via Discogs. That is, all of the instrumental albums (except for the one Strings album) as well as the LH&R, of course, but only part of the Joe Williams feature albums and none of the others as they ranked far down on my priority lists. So maybe a lookout for the Eckstine and possibly the Strings album might not be amiss after all ...

[JSngry]

I very much like the with Strings albums, some really ravishing Ben Webster on it, but I recommended it here a few weeks ago and reception wash, shall we say, not enthusiastic. 💥

[Larry Kart]

Eckstine is in great shape on the Eckstine/Basie album.

[Rabshakeh]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

I very much like the with Strings albums, some really ravishing Ben Webster on it, but I recommended it here a few weeks ago and reception wash, shall we say, not enthusiastic. 💥

Well. That's one of the posts that led me to start this thread.

Just listened to this one. Not all Eckstine is equal, it turns out.

[Gheorghe]

6 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Well. That's one of the posts that led me to start this thread.

Just listened to this one. Not all Eckstine is equal, it turns out.

I think some late friend of me  had made me a tape from this record. Is it possible that there is "Alexander´s Ragtime Band" on it, and "Cheek to Cheek" ? 

Recently a bassplayer with whom I work next week mentioned it. My eternal answer was, yeah, the voices great, the tunes nice, but the orchestra is too polished. 
But Cheek to Cheek is a wonderful vehicle to play or to blow on it, and very recommanded to more advanced students, to learn to play enlarged song forms, not only the usual 32 bars

[Rabshakeh]

53 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

I think some late friend of me  had made me a tape from this record. Is it possible that there is "Alexander´s Ragtime Band" on it, and "Cheek to Cheek" ? 

Recently a bassplayer with whom I work next week mentioned it. My eternal answer was, yeah, the voices great, the tunes nice, but the orchestra is too polished. 
But Cheek to Cheek is a wonderful vehicle to play or to blow on it, and very recommanded to more advanced students, to learn to play enlarged song forms, not only the usual 32 bars

That’s the one. I can’t say that I cared for it. It seemed very much treacle pop, with settings and arrangements that did not suit either singer.

[Gheorghe]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

That’s the one. I can’t say that I cared for it. It seemed very much treacle pop, with settings and arrangements that did not suit either singer.

So I´m not alone with my impression. I had that "problem" with allround studio bands quite often.
I don´t like the Big Band on Charlie Parker on Verve "Temptation", it sounds more like movie music from some typical 1950´s films. 
I have my thing with Big Bands: I love the Eckstine Band from the 40´s , the Dizzy Big Band , the Thad Jones - Mel Lewis, the Sun Ra Archestra, that´s some big band sounds that really thrills me. 

[JSngry]

16 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Well. That's one of the posts that led me to start this thread.

Just listened to this one. Not all Eckstine is equal, it turns out.

Try this one instead:

 

[Rabshakeh]

Okay. I shall. 

[JSngry]

1953, with Wardell. Has Universal put this one out?

 

[Mark Stryker]

13 minutes ago, JSngry said:

1953, with Wardell. Has Universal put this one out?

 

Are you aware that you've posted this on what would have been Wardell's 103rd birthday?

[JSngry]

I am not, but will gladly accept whatever additional  karmatateous delicacies come our way as a result;

[Gheorghe]

I don´t know what karmatateous delicacies means😄, but Billy Eckstine is my favourite singer, period. Only, as a jazz musician I prefer his work with the Band, when Tadd arranged all that wonderful stuff. I hear Billys wonderful voice in my head, but it is inseparabil connected with the fine band behind him, all those Dameron voicings and hip stuff you still can learn so much from it, let´s say if I have to comp a singer, or how I comp for a ballad.....

 

One of my favourite songs right now is Eckstine´s version of "Love is the Thing" 

[Big Beat Steve]

Re-reading this thread now, with a lapse of close to 1 year, this reminds me that last fall I locally picked up really chep clearance sale NM copies of the "Basie & Eckstine" and "Basie & Strings" LPs on Roulette (to - almost - complete my run of the Roulette Basie series). The other day I spun the Eckstine LP again. The Basie band pulls it off well, and Eckstine fits in better than I had feared from a swinging point of view (playing it passably safe repertoire-wise may have helped). But I still cannot quite warm up to his "declamatory" singing style in such a jazz setting. (Can't quite put it into words why I like the "declamatory" singing of Joe Williams better ...) But it's OK for me the way it is anyway ... Rhough certainly no "desert island" fare.

[mikeweil]

13 hours ago, JSngry said:

1953, with Wardell. Has Universal put this one out?

 

This is from an MGMN session. No Universal CD release AFAIK. Why not get the Jasmine CD?

https://www.discogs.com/release/11582130-Billy-Eckstine-All-Of-My-Life

Seeems to be nice compilation. Don't have the time right now to check for overlaps with existing Unversal compilations.

https://jasmine-records.co.uk/gb/easy-listening/2361-billy-eckstine-all-of-my-life.html

Edited February 14 by mikeweil