Billy Eckstine

[Gheorghe]

15 hours ago, JSngry said:

hmmm... I just hear him singing the songs. And singing them quite well.

a more salient point is how both Motown and Stax probably had an idea of breaking him into the "adult contemporary" market of the day like so SO many White artists of his generation - and failing. That's a complicated issue, because the labels themselves no doubt were as unfamiliar to that network as the network was with them. But it also raises the point - why did no other labels want to do with Eckstine what they were doing with all the White artists they were promoting? Did Eckstine want to work with black-owned and/or operated labels? Or did they have no interest in bringing him into their fold? Or maybe both?

It's obvious to me that given a decent song (which was far from always on both the Motown & Enterprise offerings) and appropriate arrangements/productions (ditto), he was more than capable of delivering a spry and WONDERFULLY executed pop record that would have easily fit in on the same stations that were playing contemporary Sinatra and Andy Williams and Jack Jones and all that ilk of excellent singers making records for their contemporary marketplace. Maybe the R&B elements were a few years early for that audience? But maybe not? How would you know if you don't get it there for an airing? Programming Directors? A lack of mutual contacts? God knows, the possibilities are more than a few...

When considering Billy Eckstine's ongoing erasure, it's not enough to end the story with his last Mercury record. No. He made SIX records LPs after that - three for Motown, three for Stax/Enterprise. The voice never deteriorated, it was always there. With the right promotion, he could have stayed visible/viable, as did Arthur Prysock. Hell, my dad constantly listened to an AM station that aggressively worked that format, so I know what that market was into. You give them a once-in-a-while thing like that "Living Like A Gypsy", it would fit right in, on the "groovy" end of their programming.

But it seems like Billy Eckstine just got forgot. How can that happen? I'm sure the answers are many, but are "we today" being complicit? The model today seems to be for one person to do the homework, step up and just fucking OWN the publicizing of the legacy, like Ricci Riccardi is doing with Armstrong, and like Stanley Dance did with Ellington. Become the "official" voice of the product/artist in these wonderfully modern times of ours. Who's going to do that for/with Billy Eckstine? Probably not his biographer, because from what I've read of it, he has a total misunderstanding about what his last records were trying to achieve, and is outright scornful of his last record (the one with Benny Carter, which I find to be nothing but awesome, one of the great Old Guy On Their VERY Last Legs records).

This should not be happening.

KOCA (1240 AM, Kilgore)  would have definitely played this, except for...what?

 

Fine, but at leat for me the "Lonesome Lover Blues" from the 40´s sounds better, or more interesting, how you´d say it....

[JSngry]

No drama is far more compelling than manipulative drama. 

[Larry Kart]

20 minutes ago, JSngry said:

No drama is far more compelling than manipulative drama. 

Excellent performance, but what or whose much less compelling "manipulative drama" do you have in mind as a point of comparison? 

BTW that photo of Eckstine with that blond girl burying her curls in his shoulder is something else. A gemlike point in time.

[JSngry]

11 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Excellent performance, but what or whose much less compelling "manipulative drama" do you have in mind as a point of comparison? 

On that song, vocally, damn near everybody.

MAKE IT MINE 

MAKE IT MINE 

MAKE 

IT 

MINE!!!!!

Or so it seems...

 

 

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

BTW that photo of Eckstine with that blond girl burying her curls in his shoulder is something else. A gemlike point in time.

 

[mikeweil]

Perfect for those who want Eckstine the jazz singer. The 1992 CD reissue restores the music as Bobby Tucker wanted it. Highly recommended.

[Larry Kart]

On 2/20/2023 at 5:37 AM, Gheorghe said:

Fine, but at leat for me the "Lonesome Lover Blues" from the 40´s sounds better, or more interesting, how you´d say it....

Could it be, Jim, that for those programmers Eckstine was a bit too much of the past, that his quite considerable heyday was felt to speak of a prior era?

[JSngry]

Of course, but I mean, c'mon, that particular niche continued to be served by other names of the past.

And some didn't.

But it seems like if you had an advocate somewhere that you had a safety net. Eckstine had one at Mercury with Quincy Jones, but after that....was Berry Gordy going to go all in on Billy Eckstine? Or Al Bell at Stax? That they were in at all still

His Motown & Stax records were not all Lost Treasures or anything, but they did have some cuts that were radio-friendly for the same stations that were playing Sinatra & Dino & Dino & Martino & Vale and all those other people. 

It's not that he was forgotten that irks me, it's that he was forgotten so damn easily. It's like, once he was forgotten, he was TOTALLY forgotten. It would be one thing if there was a total loss of skills, but there was not that (perceived "wobble" to the contrary).

Somebody else who had somewhat the same fate, if on a parallel track was Dick Hames. Some of his mid-50s Capitol material is bone-chillingly dark. But he was already "the guy whose place Sinatra took" and there was no getting over that.

But - Dick Haymes got buttloads of movie and TV shots for a good long time. Eckstine never did.

Hell, Rudy Valee kept popping up on TV for DECADES after he was a national sensation, and Rudy Vallee was, not a novelty act, but certainly not a serious talent.

I stand by "erasure" because there was no support system to keep Billy Eckstine in the broader popular eye after his greatest fame had passed. I'm in no way saying that this erasure has been intentional (although that Life photo certainly had to have triggered something in some parts of the industry, how could it not have?). But things do get erased from the popular culture when there is no visibility.

Safety net, support system, call it what you will. Sinatra was left for dead until "From Here To Eternity" and somebody at Capitol taking a chance. Show me where Billy Eckstine got more than a chance to make records for labels where he was not going to be a priority. Show me where Billy Eckstine got some bit parts in a move. Show me where Billy Eckstine got sitcom roles (although, Redd Foxx did like to do an imitation form time to time on Sanford).

The guy began as a larger-than-life talent, and even if life had it's way with his fame, it did not have his way with his talent. And....did anybody care? DOES anybody care? It's not like the guy died destitute or anything, just...my god, what an instrument, all the way to the end.

 

 

 

 

l

[JSngry]

Did RCA think they another Perry Como on their hands? 

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Of course, but I mean, c'mon, that particular niche continued to be served by other names of the past.

And some didn't.

But it seems like if you had an advocate somewhere that you had a safety net. Eckstine had one at Mercury with Quincy Jones, but after that....was Berry Gordy going to go all in on Billy Eckstine? Or Al Bell at Stax? That they were in at all still

His Motown & Stax records were not all Lost Treasures or anything, but they did have some cuts that were radio-friendly for the same stations that were playing Sinatra & Dino & Dino & Martino & Vale and all those other people. 

It's not that he was forgotten that irks me, it's that he was forgotten so damn easily. It's like, once he was forgotten, he was TOTALLY forgotten. It would be one thing if there was a total loss of skills, but there was not that (perceived "wobble" to the contrary).

Somebody else who had somewhat the same fate, if on a parallel track was Dick Hames. Some of his mid-50s Capitol material is bone-chillingly dark. But he was already "the guy whose place Sinatra took" and there was no getting over that.

But - Dick Haymes got buttloads of movie and TV shots for a good long time. Eckstine never did.

Hell, Rudy Valee kept popping up on TV for DECADES after he was a national sensation, and Rudy Vallee was, not a novelty act, but certainly not a serious talent.

I stand by "erasure" because there was no support system to keep Billy Eckstine in the broader popular eye after his greatest fame had passed. I'm in no way saying that this erasure has been intentional (although that Life photo certainly had to have triggered something in some parts of the industry, how could it not have?). But things do get erased from the popular culture when there is no visibility.

Safety net, support system, call it what you will. Sinatra was left for dead until "From Here To Eternity" and somebody at Capitol taking a chance. Show me where Billy Eckstine got more than a chance to make records for labels where he was not going to be a priority. Show me where Billy Eckstine got some bit parts in a move. Show me where Billy Eckstine got sitcom roles (although, Redd Foxx did like to do an imitation form time to time on Sanford).

The guy began as a larger-than-life talent, and even if life had it's way with his fame, it did not have his way with his talent. And....did anybody care? DOES anybody care? It's not like the guy died destitute or anything, just...my god, what an instrument, all the way to the end.

 

 

 

 

l

OK -- I now think that it all comes down to that photo with that adoring girl, which likely stands for a fair sized wave of behavior/sentiment among young female fans of that age. Based on the look of the photo, I'd bet that it appeared in Life or Look magazine, magazines that  had large circulations back then. And who knows what broad-based fears, conscious or not, were set off among the various social structures that existed in America at that  time by that photo and the likely fact of the intensity and nature of Eckstine's young white female fandom that the photo vividly spoke of. How much of a reaction of this sort would it have taken to more or less casually or even specifically lead to the "erasue" Eckstine I don't know.  It would be  good to have some "inside the entertainment industry" testimony on this, if there is any that can be found. But this is the best explanation I can think of.

[JSngry]

I wonder if Quincy Jones is sentient enough to speak any truth to it. 

[Larry Kart]

47 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I wonder if Quincy Jones is sentient enough to speak any truth to it. 

Good guess. Also Quincy himself later on married one of those young girls, actress Peggy Lipton. Didn't seem to hold him back in the business. O Tempera, O Mores.

Peggy Lipton 

 

[medjuck]

Friend of mine interviewed Q about a year ago.  Said he was fine. 

[JSngry]

Quincy knew/knows how power works and no doubt learned some lessons from Eckstine. 

Glad he's doing well. There were a few interviews around the time of his autobiography where he seemed a little...bouncy. 

[JSngry]

Ed Eckstine, Billy's son: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/04/arts/music/ed-eckstine-blackout-tuesday-music.html

Career facilitated by...Quincy Jones. 

[Mark Stryker]

Just a coda to that song Jim posted, "Condemned for Life (with a Rock and Roll Wife)" -- I noticed that one of the cowriters listed is Moose Charlap. That's Bill Charlap's father. 

[Larry Kart]

Moose Charlap was the chief recording session contractor on the NYC scene in the '50s and '60s. He also wrote the songs for "Peter Pan."

[Gheorghe]

9 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

 

 

It's not that he was forgotten that irks me, it's that he was forgotten so damn easily. It's like, once he was forgotten, he was TOTALLY forgotten. It would be one thing if there was a total loss of skills, but there was not that (perceived "wobble" to the contrary).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

l

I remember when I was a Down Beat subscriber for many years, in spring 1983 it was advertised that at "Rick´s Café" in Chicago two giants of bop were on schedule to perform. It was one or two weeks Dexter Gordon, and after him it was Billy Eckstine. I mean, Gordon was one of Mr. B´s most important soloists and his solo on let´s say "Blowin´ the Blues Away" became a trademark "blow Mr. Gene, blow Mr. Dexter too....´cause maybe you can help me blowin´the blues away...." 

I mean, what a schedule, I would have liked to be there. 
And Dexter always talked with delight about those years. 

It´s possible, that during the time of that engagement at Rick´s Café Billy Eckstine was less known to public than Dexter, that´s true. 

[JSngry]

oh my goodness...

 

[medjuck]

Listening to Billy on Spotify and see that most songs have  20,000 or so plays except for something called "Christmas Eve" which has 8 million plays and  is truly awful. 

[Gheorghe]

Something I want to say about Billy Eckstine from my point of view as a musician:

I really learned much about playing ballads from listening to Mr. B´s versions of it. All those fantastic things "I want to talk about You". "A Cottage for Sale", "All I sing is Blues"  "Love is the Thing", "You Are my Everything", "Without a Song". To hear it sung by Mr.B, to learn a bit about the lyrics so you learn what you must know about a ballad, and also very important for me as a piano player: To dig the chords of the arrangements, the intros to the ballad.

As was mentioned in the thread about a composition by @AllenLowe in "Miscellanious Music" I also like to play ballads not too slow. Some play it so slow it´s almost standing time, but you get the attention of the audience much quicker if you play it at the speed it was played when it was created and performed. 
I also listen to some versions of Nat King Cole, not that I like him more than Mr.B and his band, but it´s also very good for learning more about ballads. 

[jazzbo]

On 2/18/2023 at 6:16 PM, mikeweil said:

As we have discussed elsewhere, Eckstine definitely would have deserved the Mosaic treatment. They did Sarah and Dinah - why not him?

I had a brief exchange with Michael Cuscuna about this recently regarding another signer, Joe Williams and his Roulette material. Here is what Michael stated:

I was researching Joe Williams Roulette box long ago when I was in charge of doing the Roulette catalog through Blue Note. But the Sarah Vaughn and Dinah Washington sets did poorly and I lost my nerve. The vocal sets take a lot more research and studio time to get them right. Sometimes, things are tracked and the vocal is overdubbed later and you have to start A/Bing all the released records to make sure you’ve got the right one. Half the unissued material is tracks only with no vocal added yet. And on and on.

Edited February 28, 2023 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

That's no excuse on an Eckstine set. The released material is a finished product. From Hines through National, through MGM, through Mercury, through Roulette, it should all be there. Collate it, clean it up, get some good liner notes, and the set makes itself, I think.

I could see a stumbling block being the dreaded "lack of jazz content", but historically...

I know it's not going to happen. But somebody needs to do something. Billy Eckstine, even on his non-jazz records, is a truly awesome voice. And he knew how to use it. especially when the production was "jazz oriented".

A truly historical figure, imo, and one who is not being at all well-served by contemporary "history".

[jazzbo]

I think it's an acceptable excuse for a record company existing on a day to day basis and trying to stay alive.

If only the Smithsonian or some governmental historical agency could be tasked with this sort of thing. But chances of that are even more slim than a record company undertaking it in this . . . I was going to start typing things this forum is not zoned for and I bet you can guess.

Edited February 28, 2023 by jazzbo

[Tribute]

On 2/18/2023 at 7:26 PM, JSngry said:

And The Four Fucking Freshmen 

I don't understand the need to denigrate musicians

[JSngry]

I'm in no way denigrating the musicians. Simply expressing my extreme dislike of their records and their presence in a Mosaic set.