Customer Service Question-Item I've Sold

[jazzmantom2004]

I'll try to be short and stick to the facts.

We have been liquidating dad's collection on eBay, half.com, and through private sales for about 7 weeks now. We have shipped 33 box sets and 654 CDs out of 42/1203 with unbelievalble positive feedback.

Recently, at auction, I sold the Miles Davis/Gil Evans Columbia box set for $92 including S&H to the UK from the US. The buyer balked at our S&H rate AFTER THE AUCTION (the info was posted) causing an exchange of e-mails and our offer to relieve him of his obligation as a buyer and we would resell it. When he realized we would not bargain after the auction, he paid.

Mom & I visually inspect and test play each disc before shipping.

Based upon postal records, the buyer notified us 2 days after receiving the set that he did not feel that the set was MINT++ as advertised as disc 6 had a "black spew" on it rendering it unplayable.

We advised him that we did not see it when shipped and that we did not have a return policy at that time. After mom & I talked about it, we agreed to process a refund if he shipped it back to us. We knew it didn't ship that way as we had played the disc.

He waited another 10 days to ship it back. When we received it, we took it to a local Used CD shop for an opinion. He did verify that it was indeed MINT++. The "black spew" as the buyer called it was a piece of glue from the CD sleeve that had come loose and stuck to the CD while putting the CD back in. He cleaned it in a second with a CD cleaning cloth.

I realized at that point, that this was probably a case of buyer's regret. He had the CDs for 12 days- long enough to burn them before returning them to us.

We then withdrew our offer of a full refund (less actual costs for commissions and postage) because of these circumstances- he had them for 12 days, the set was verified MINT++ condition, and we believe that this is a case of buyer's regret as supported by his attempts to renegotiate after the auction ended.

We could be wrong. We're not perfect.

What do you think?

1-Full Refund (less our costs which is what he's expecting)

2-Partial Refund (It resold for $24 less than he paid so we want to refund the net amount)

Let us know your thoughts.

Edited March 31, 2004 by jazzmantom2004

[Jazzmoose]

You're probably right; the guy was just trying to get out of the deal. But once you've made the offer of the refund, and the buyer has returned the merchandise in good condition (as you indicate he has), you are obligated to issue the refund as you promised. Anything else would be less than honest in my opinion. Good guide: always take the high road...

[Bright Moments]

i agree with jazzmoose. B)

[catesta]

Tough call, but I think in the long run you will be better off giving the full refund.

[Dan Gould]

What Jazzmoose said.

Regardless of whether you think he "worked" you, you freely offered a full refund; you have no choice but to honor the terms that were offered and accepted.

One last point: are you certain he kept the set an extra ten days before shipping, or is it possible the delay was due to the postal system? Its not clear from your message.

[Leeway]

I'd also agree with Jazzmoose. And, really, the $ difference, although annoying, is not worth the continuing aggravation and potentially worse problems, that could arise from dealing with this "buyer." Unfortunately, situations like this have become an inevitable part of the EBAY experience if you are a frequent buyer or seller. Better to move on.

[Brad]

I'd also have to agree with the Moose. Once you offered the refund, which you didn't have to do, and he accepted, that was it; you have to follow through. Dan also raises a good point in his last post. With ebay (and I sell things there to support my jazz habit), it's not worth getting hassled or a negative feedback. I try to go out of my way to make sure I keep my perfect feedback. If a buyer is unhappy (rarely happens), I offer a full refund. Better to follow the high road, as Mark says.

[jazzmantom2004]

OK, he gets his full refund.

Just some clarifications-

He was offered a full refund because he misrepresented the facts in order to get such an answer. Later, I realized he was full-of-crap. Looks like I'm the loser because I trusted what he said resulting in my offer of the refund.

Regarding the 10 days---yes, I'm sure. I could tell by the postmark vs. the date he acknowleged the e-mail for the refund..

Regarding eBay feedback, I'll bet you money that even with his full refund, he'll negative me anyway. He's already made threats about reporting me to eBay. About what? I don't know. I do not offer any "warranty" in my auctions. Quite frankly, I haven't had to until this guy. Some of you who posted here have bought from me with no complaints.

For me, lesson learned, and as the Moose said, I'll go with the high road.

Thanks everybody.

Hal

[chris olivarez]

Your'e right on taking the high road. The buyer IMO seems to have some integrity issues. You might want to consider giving the buyer some negative feedback on e bay.

[jazzmantom2004]

Follow-Up

I contacted him via e-mail. I gave him his refund with 2 conditions.

1) He drop any case he might have started with eBay and advise them the matter was settled and closed.

2) He agree not to post ANY feedback, pos, neg, neutral and I wouldn't either.

He agreed to both.

Case closed.

Thanks everybody!

Hal

[chris olivarez]

Here's hoping that he will fulfill his part of the bargain. You handled it right.

[Jazzmoose]

2) He agree not to post ANY feedback, pos, neg, neutral and I wouldn't either.

Ouch! Well, it probably won't matter, but this probably falls into eBay's definition of "feedback extortion", an offense that (supposedly) could actually result in your account being suspended. I doubt he'll report it, but be careful...

[Man with the Golden Arm]

Yeah this looks like one of those cases where the bidder got a bit too antsy and did not do the homework. This set usually goes around $50 to $60 depending on the weather.

Just last week in the Mosaic "Ebay craziness forum" a post about a new Brookmeyer Select had it up at $100! The bidder was one of us and the seller was old Jay and Marie! Luckily the bidder got out before he became the buyer courtesy of someone here not making fun but just giving a friendly holler. I am right now in the midst of trying to get dough out of a buyer who I think got a bit too excited and is now back-pedaling on the deal. It's tough when a bidder faults, turns into a buyer and then palys hardball with you the seller.

Jazzmantom was more than accommodating to this chump. I would not worry much about the feedback. A buyer or seller can do anything they want in there and if someones gonna judge you by a single hit then business with them is better not to be.

[Brad]

How is that extortion. That's called making a deal. You want your money back, here's the deal, etc. He doesn't have to agree to it. It's not blackmail or whatever. He just won't get his money back.

[Jazzmoose]

Hal-I'd probably just leave it alone at this point and hope for the best; I don't know...

Brad, I was trying to think of a way to explain, but if reading your own post doesn't do it, I probably can't either. "You want your money back, here's the deal" pretty much sums it up, since the refund has already been promised. Thinking on it overnight, though, I could very well be wrong. Demanding certain feedback as part of the "deal" is certainly feedback extortion, by eBay's past definition; I don't see that demanding NO feedback is any different, but I don't know this as a fact. Feedback is NOT a part of the deal itself; it is an evaluation of the deal.

[Jazzmoose]

I would not worry much about the feedback. A buyer or seller can do anything they want in there and if someones gonna judge you by a single hit then business with them is better not to be.

I agree; unless you're just starting out in eBay, one neg is not going to break you. And if you sell regularly or for any length of time, you're going to get that first negative.

[jazzmantom2004]

The guy won.

He got a chance to burn the discs at my expense and got his money back at that.

He is a buyer with 100% feedback so he doesn't want a negative. Neither do I so it's just a financial write-off at this point.

The lesson learned is worth the loss. I check the CDs visually. My mom test plays them. My level of trust has been shot-to-shit so Ijust won't offer refunds anymore.

I hold the last card in this tansaction. If he posts feedback so will I.

[Dan Gould]

I hold the last card in this tansaction. If he posts feedback so will I.

This is how I got the two or three negative feedbacks I have, when I posted negative feedback, I got B.S. tit-for-tat negative feedback in return, totally unearned (in one case, I paid with a money order but he didn't ship for two weeks after receipt, which I thought was outrageous).

Please note, though, I am NOT implying that you would be in the wrong to "go negative" if he does-he's the jerk in this transaction, not you!

As far as feedback extortion goes, I've only encountered it with one seller. A guy who sells used VHS, he had a horror film I thought my wife would enjoy. But I was pissed when he said that in order to get feedback, I had to post feedback first. I told him that as a member of the community, it is his responsibility to report on the transaction, good, bad, or indifferent, regardless of what I do. His response was that until he instituted this policy, he never got any feedback at all-maybe 5% would post feedback voluntarily, but with the new policy, 80 or 90% would post, and as a result, he was getting what he wanted-a very high number of positive feedbacks.

In the end, the transaction was so smooth and the shipping so quick, I gave him his positive feedback as I would have anyway, despite my misgivings. But with my feedback number around 50, I needed more feedback more than he needed it!

[jazzmantom2004]

That's an interesting point about dual feedback.

I have stickers that I attach to each package that says "POSITIVE FEEDBACK IS ALWAYS APPRECIATED AND RETURNED! PROBLEMS? CONTACT ME AT JAZZMANTOM2004@YAHOO.COM"

Why? In the beginning, I had shipped about 30 CDs with no complaints AND with NO feedback left for me. Now, if you post, I post.

Since the stickers, about 65% of the people actually post feedback.

When I buy, I ALWAYS leave feedback. Knock wood, as a buyer, I haven't had to post any negatives.

[Brad]

Hal-I'd probably just leave it alone at this point and hope for the best; I don't know...

Brad, I was trying to think of a way to explain, but if reading your own post doesn't do it, I probably can't either. "You want your money back, here's the deal" pretty much sums it up, since the refund has already been promised. Thinking on it overnight, though, I could very well be wrong. Demanding certain feedback as part of the "deal" is certainly feedback extortion, by eBay's past definition; I don't see that demanding NO feedback is any different, but I don't know this as a fact. Feedback is NOT a part of the deal itself; it is an evaluation of the deal.

I hate to get legal on this but the basis of your argument is that Hal had promised him to refund his money and that therefore he couldn't have bargained the buyer's money back for the promise not to leave negative feedback.

However, any deal or promise to be binding must have consideration. If there's no consideration, it's not enforceable. If Hal had said, I'm not going to refund your money, the buyer would have no recourse. It wasn't part of the original transaction and Hal's offer to refund the money was just a mere promise or offer on his part. For Hal's offer to become binding, the buyer would have to have offered something in return, either positive or negative. To be binding, there must be something flowing both ways. It doesn't look to me like the buyer did. Therefore Hal's initial offer is not enforceable. However, when Hal made his offer with the requirement that the buyer not leave a negative feedback and the buyer agreed, then you have an agreement because there was consideration. Consideration can be both a positive act (e.g. paying money) or surrendering a right that you would otherwise have (e.g. agreeing not to leave feedback).

Regarding leaving feedback. As a seller, I always give feedback. I feel it's my obligation and a courtesy to do so. However, as a buyer, I won't leave it until the seller does. If he doesn't have the courtesy, why should I? I recently bought a cd and the seller said that he doesn't leave feedback unless I ask him to. My feeling about that? Screw you. It's your obligation to leave it and I shouldn't have to remind you to do so.

[jazzmantom2004]

Quite frankly, other than truly fraudulent buyers/sellers, have you really ever seen an eBayer with less than a 95-100% rating?

The whole feedback system is corrupt. I think that's why people don't participate in it fully.

If I come across something that I really want, unless the seller has multiple negative feedbacks from different customers, I wind up taking a chance. Haven't been burned yet as a buyer.

Here's an example---a seller had 16 feedbacks with a 75% rating. Four of the negative feedbacks were from 1 buyer. The post office damaged the box. The seller clearly offered Postal Insurance in her auctions and specifically said "Not responsible for Postal loss or damage if insurance not purchased." So why the negatives? The buyer was pissed off at her own frugalness in not spending the extra $6.20 and that the seller said "Too bad you did not buy insurance".

AND, what about those sellers who get a poor record and then just sign up for a new user id?

It's a corrupt system. What it really is- a buyer beware environment. Most of the time it's win/win. Buffer all of your good deals with the fact that there is a slight chance you may get burned.

[Brad]

I'd have to disagree with you about being a corrupt system. I've been on there for six years now and that's not my experience at all. I do think people participate in it and when dealing with sellers I look not to see if they're in the 95% range (tha's bad) but in the low 99s or high 98s. If they are, I try to avoid them. I think it's a self policing system and I think it works reasonably well. As a rule, I'm very loath to give out negative feedbacks. It's just something I don't like to do. I've done it but probably not more than 3 or 4 times in six years.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Brad, I'm not quite tracking here......you're saying that the person with 99.8% or 100% positive feedback is the one to avoid?

[Jim Alfredson]

I'm at 98.8% with only two negative feedbacks (that were completely my fault). It happens. Oh well. Does it cost me any bidders? Maybe, but the last stuff I sold on eBay sold in less than 24 hours (all three items, over $100 each).

[RDK]

Honestly, I rarely worry about (or even look at) feedback unless it's really low. There's too much politicking involved, too many people give out positives only because they don't want to receive a retaliatory negative, and too often, as mentioned above, you get people dishing out negs for no valid reason.

I don't think it's "corrupt," but I don't believe it's very useful anymore except in weeding out the *really* bad guys. I wish people left more "neutrals." If a transaction goes smoothly, with no real problems, and the money is sent and the item received in a rasonable amount of time - both parties should get neutrals. If things go wrong, negs should be handed out. To me, a buyer should get a positive if he pays right away and the seller should get one if he ships quickly, with adequate packaging, and reasonable shipping. Friendly emails are a nice touch. But the way the system now works, positives are handed out too freely, with the simple closing of a transaction whether it was a "smooth" experience or not.

As for Jazzmantom, don't be too quick to think that your buyer merely copied the discs and returned them. (While he may have, I doubt that was his original intention.) That Miles box ain't rare - he probably could have copied them from friends or any library - and to do that across the Atlantic just ain't worth it. Besides, at $92 for a used set, I'd say he paid too much and instead regretted his purchase. That doesn't, of course, make it right - he should eat his error and the feedback extortion is disgusting - but quite honestly the hassle this is causing you isn't worth the twenty bucks or so.