Why Down Beat magazine is a bad joke

[Christiern]

The following letter was forwarded to me by a friend who is a major tenor player. It was originally addressed to Marvin Stamm, and it says a lot about Down Beat's editors. From time to time someone here raises a question about the jazz press and why it often does not seem to get it. This, I think, illustrates the validity of such questions.--Chris A

Dear Marv old buddy;

I love your E-letter! You may be interested in this. Downbeat is running a piece on influences on saxophone players (it may have other instrumentalists-I am not sure). When they called me for interview a few weeks ago I told them that my first teacher, Mr. Harvey Larose, was of profound influence on everything I have accomplished. Under separate cover I am sending you an essay I wrote for Sax Journal about this outstanding teacher and friend.

Ted Panken called yesterday and told me that the editor would not run my interview because nobody ever heard of Mr. Larose. They want me to do another one using a famous sax man, like Rudy Wiedoff or Ozzie Nelson. I told them to stick their tacky mag where the sun don't shine. How dare they!! The unsung heroes of our music are the local teachers who help us discover ourselves through their toil. I would like the IAJE to know about this cavalier approach to jazz education and let Deadbeat know how they feel. Could you pass this on to the members at large and tell them of this woeful neglect by a magazine that profits from the work of teachers like Mr. Harvey Larose? He turned me on to Benny Carter, Johnny Hodges and Charie Parker, plus taught me the American songbook and gave me advanced improvisation lessons when I was 13 years old! I am really upset about this! Please help spread the news to other jazz educators of  this travesty. Thank you.

Phil Woods

Edited March 30, 2004 by Christiern

[Harold_Z]

Downbeat just seems like one big advertisement. I've been reading it since the early 60s (maybe earlier) and I used to enjoy it, espescially when KD was doing record reviews and things of that ilk. I wasn't as aware of the business angles when I was kid, but maybe also it wasn't so blatant then. Now it's all to apparent.

[Brad]

That is truly sad and tragic. I recently picked up the magazine after having not read it in a very long time. I was not impressed (not that I think Jazz Times is so hot either). Except for the British magazine, Jazz Review, there seems to be a paucity of good jazz periodicals out there.

[wesbed]

For me, the jazz periodicals, if you can find those that appeal to you, are on the internet. Not in the standard published form of old, such as Down Beat, but the jazz forums such as such as Organissimo and All About Jazz. I used to page-through Down Beat & Jazziz but didn't find much of value. I remember, during the 1980s, the only sources of jazz knowledge I had was that of my own brain (leaves much to be desired!), the jazz CD insert, and the jazz publications. The jazz periodicals offered some nice pictures, but only of the popular artists. I don’t place much faith in the jazz publications anymore.

The positive side of the internet is that the information is constantly changing and constantly upgraded. However, the information is not well organized and a user may have to dig through lots of 'junk' to find good information. The internet user cannot always count on a jazz forum to present clear, concise, and factual information or interviews with the artists.

In a way it's sad to see the jazz publications become nothing but a big advertisement. However, with the addition of the internet, I miss them not at all. I've learned so much more from the internet than from any jazz periodical.

The times keep changing.

Edited March 30, 2004 by wesbed

[Dr. Rat]

I emailed Woods' note to Downbeat's EIC, here's his response:

Thanks for forwarding the note. I wish I could get pissed off at this,

but Mr. Woods is spot on. In fact, the letter made me chuckle. If he

weren't so good with the saxophone, he would have been one hell of a

writer.

In short, we surrender!

That said, I winced at his description of DB. It pains me to think

someone like Phil Woods would ever call us, "a tacky little mag." We

put out a great magazine. We love the jazz education community. We work

hard to promote that community.

He's right, of course, Harvey Larose, and every teacher who ever helped

a kid get excited about this music, should have their own Mount

Rushmore. We were just thinking in a different direction for this issue.

But Mr. Woods knocked us upside the head, and we've regained our

senses. Absolutely, his comments on Larose will be a welcome, and

fitting, addition to our July 70th anniversary issue. (Sorry, a

shameless plug.)

Best regards,

Frank Alkyer

[JSngry]

They're not clueless, they whores, pure and simple. They admit it, albeit al little indirectly. So, kudos for self-aware sliminess.

"just thinking in a different direction" inDEED!

[RDK]

Still: Victory!

[7/4]

They're not clueless, they whores, pure and simple. They admit it, albeit al little indirectly. So, kudos for self-aware sliminess.

"just thinking in a different direction" inDEED!

Welcome to the magazine biz....

[JSngry]

Hell, welcome to life!

[BruceH]

"Down Beat"---the magazine whose name describes the way it makes you feel.

[chris olivarez]

Well said JSngry welcome to life indeed. I read a Horace Silver interview in a recent Downbeat that I enjoyed. What I didn't enjoy was Downbeat's initial response to Phil Woods. As a reader I would like to know who influenced and inspired Phil Woods. What does it matter if it was his music teacher? Phil Woods has been making great music for years and his fans including myself should be eternally grateful to his music teacher for his part in launching this wonderful career. That teacher deserves kudos for his contribution(s). I don't blame Phil for being pissed and hopefully Downbeat will make things right.

[7/4]

Dead Beat.

[Jazzmoose]

For me, the jazz periodicals, if you can find those that appeal to you, are on the internet.

I agree. Between this board, and places like Sudden Thoughts (and others, not going to try and name them all!), I get more than I ever got from the in print jazz press.

[catesta]

For me, the jazz periodicals, if you can find those that appeal to you, are on the internet.

I agree. Between this board, and places like Sudden Thoughts (and others, not going to try and name them all!), I get more than I ever got from the in print jazz press.

Word.

It's tough to find a more informed group then we have here.

On one hand it's nice to see DB respond and admit it was a fuck up, on the other hand, what they did was pure stupidity.

[Joe G]

"Down Beat"---the magazine whose name describes the way it makes you feel.

Exactly. As a musician, I usually come away thinking, "if this is what it's about, what's the use?"

[Dr. Rat]

Hell, welcome to life!

Personally, I think we ought to take a little of this attitude to heart before we go on slash and burn campaigns.

Have a look at the descriptors in this thread:

"tacky little mag," "bad joke" "clueless" "one big advertisement" "whores" etc. etc.

Not that there haven't been valuable observations in the thread, but to me a lot of it seems to speak pretty poorly of US.

Chris started this thread by mentioning that jazz media "don't get it," but I think what ought to be clear to anyone is that there isn't any singular IT out there to get. And for that reason we ought to develop a bit of tolerance for other folks' conception of IT and their ways of moving IT forward.

I remember reading a characterization of the jazz world as a bunch of starving dogs tearing each other to pieces.

That bit of description probably isn't right either, but maybe we can see a grain of truth in it?

--eric

[couw]

I remember reading a characterization of the jazz world as a bunch of starving dogs tearing each other to pieces.

that's not true of course!!!!

and if you dare to utter that blasted thought again, I will bite your neck off with my bare hands!!!

Edited March 31, 2004 by couw

[Christiern]

I used to write for this tacky little mag before it became a bad joke and took aboard a number of clueless contributors, but even then (the 1960s) it was becoming one big advertisement with a whore-ish tendency. The jazz magazine that maintains noticeable integrity and a high editorial level is a rarity, especially in the U.S. There is no defense for the decision that prompted Paul Horn to write his letter.

[Leeway]

The magazines (DB included) think they are giving us what we want. So, who is "we." Clearly not most of the posters on this thread. Yet for the magazines to survive, they have to know their market. My sense is that the market is split between those who actually like the pop culture, PR-driven type of content, and those who prefer more detailed, analytical, and, well, serious, writing about the music.

One might say it's a difference between high and low culture, or between "mass" culture and "elite" culture. The magazines often try to straddle these divides, with the result that no one is entirely pleased. In the current economic climate in this country, it's hard for media to make a go of it unless it attracts a mass audience. A television show that pulls "only"a million viewers is considered a flop. A magazine that sells less than 100,000 copies is considered borderline. Jazz itself is in a precarious position because it is only barely on the pop culture, mass-market map. The magazines that cater to that market share the same difficulties; consequently they continuously try to broaden their market-- thus more pop culture types of articles.

Final thought: maybe the magazines underestimate their public. Maybe they should try to lead rather than reflect popular tastes (or what they perceive as popular taste). I for one would love to read an article on the many primary, secondary and college teachers who have educated and inspired jazz musicians. They also need to develop and nurture good writers, people who have something significant to say about jazz and the jazz scene, and who can say it well.

Edited March 31, 2004 by Leeway

[Dr. Rat]

I used to write for this tacky little mag before it became a bad joke and took aboard a number of clueless contributors, but even then (the 1960s) it was becoming one big advertisement with a whore-ish tendency. The jazz magazine that maintains noticeable integrity and a high editorial level is a rarity, especially in the U.S. There is no defense for the decision that prompted Paul Horn to write his letter.

For those keeping score: the Paul Horn reference is one for Chris, as he gets a dig at me for a post defending getting names wrong on the radio in another thread. Now that's the sort of subtlety our disapproving posts lamentably lack!

I think its certainly possible to not like Downbeat, and not to subscribe or buy or read it. And to think it ought to be something else and to be going in a different direction.

But, for me there's a whole spectrum of feeling between approving of something and publicly calling it a "worthless rag" or whatever.

--eric

[Rooster_Ties]

Downbeat is what it is. It's not the worst thing ever, and it's a little better now, than I remember it being at various times in the last 20 years or so.

I don't subscribe, and I only buy about two issues per year -- but I do pick the thing up at the newsstand most months, and spend a good 3-5 minutes with it. I usually buy the "critics poll" issue every year, and one other issue - based on the cover story (which always turns out to be less depth than I was looking for).

I've thought about subscribing for years, but I never have. It's worth about $1 per issue to me, sometimes $2, or occasionally even $3 -- and their subscription rates are never close enough to that to make be pull the trigger.

It's a mainstream jazz mag, and it doesn't pretend to be anything otherwise. I'm sure if they went in the directions I'd like to see them go, their readership would take a serious nosedive.

Overall, I'd give them a letter grade of "B-". Occasionally they put out what I consider to be a "B+" issue. Several "C" or "C+" issues per year as well.

Was a time several years ago when they were lucky to put out a "C-" issue, IMHO.

Edited March 31, 2004 by Rooster_Ties

[Peter]

Please tell me about sudden thoughts. What's its url? Thanks.

[couw]

http://www.sudden-thoughts.com/

[mikeweil]

Same here with German jazz magazines: Jazz Podium, Jazz Thing - haven't read a copy of Jazzthetik in quite a while. It is no coincidence that a feature article always corresponds to a new CD release and a tour.

On the other hand, I can understand a magazine has to sell some, and depends on the public that goes for current events.

As long as there is both the trendy and the classic and the undeground, it's alright with me.

But that reaction to Phil Woods was plain stupid.

[andersf]

Sweden har "Orkesterjournalen", which I believe claims to be the worlds oldest jazz magazine. While I am not a subscriber, I read it at time from time at the library. Its quite good, knowledgable, run by enthusiasts for enthusiasts, on the down side, a bit staid. The layout is about the same as it was when I started reading it in the early 1970s. Mixes articles (sometimes so long that they continue in the next issue) about the past with with more contemperorary stuff, but no blatant commercial tie-ins.

So how does it survive. Not because of the great number of swedish jazz fans who take their jazz (very) seriously. We are not that many, and some of us would rather spend our money on a concert or a Mosaic set. Nor are the advertisments disturblingly many. So I would suppose (this being Sweden) that there a state subsidy somewhere in the background.

Edited April 1, 2004 by andersf