High cost of Woody Shaw's BLACKSTONE LEGACY

[Big Al]

Could someone please explain why Woody Shaw's BLACKSTONE LEGACY is so expensive, especially compared to other jazz doubles of the same time. Can't seem to find it for less than US$250. I agree it's a fantastic album, but is it that rare? What am I missing?

[Chuck Nessa]

Can't explain it, don't understand it and happy to settle for an inexpensive cd with no surface noise.

Edit to say I bought the lps as a new release and it has gone away.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Chuck Nessa

[Mark Stryker]

Two reasons I think:

1) Scarcity. It was released in 1971 in a relatively modest number and never repressed or reissued in America on vinyl. There appears to be Japanese vinyl reissue of it somewhere along the way. The only domestic CD version came out in 1999.

2) It's typically grouped in with the black "spiritual jazz" of its era and those records, for whatever reason, are intensely collected these days by folks both in America and overseas. 

[Pim]

I think Mark answer says it all. Been looking for a copy for a while but prices are insane. I stick with my cd version for now. 
 

I pleaded for a reissue in the 70th anniversary Contemporary series on the Hoffman board. But I don’t think it has much chance as the music is pretty ‘challenging’. Same goes for the beautiful stuff Sonny Simmons made on the label. 

[JSngry]

Big Al is back!

Also agree about the scarcity. It was not in the shops around here at all. Maybe at Peaches, but maybe not. I got my copy used at Nicholas Potter - Bookseller, a nifty bookstore in Santa Fe that had a weird mix of used records in a bin at the back of the store. The sticker says that I paid $7.00 for it.

For whatever reason, Woody's next Contemporary side, Song Of Songs, was easily found.

[jlhoots]

18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Big Al is back!

Also agree about the scarcity. It was not in the shops around here at all. Maybe at Peaches, but maybe not. I got my copy used at Nicholas Potter - Bookseller, a nifty bookstore in Santa Fe that had a weird mix of used records in a bin at the back of the store. The sticker says that I paid $7.00 for it.

For whatever reason, Woody's next Contemporary side, Song Of Songs, was easily found.

Nick Potter is still around.

[JSngry]

Glad to hear that!

[Big Al]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Big Al is back!

Missed ya, brother. Hope you're doing well.

12 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

Two reasons I think:

1) Scarcity. It was released in 1971 in a relatively modest number and never repressed or reissued in America on vinyl. There appears to be Japanese vinyl reissue of it somewhere along the way. The only domestic CD version came out in 1999.

2) It's typically grouped in with the black "spiritual jazz" of its era and those records, for whatever reason, are intensely collected these days by folks both in America and overseas. 

That makes sense. But then that leads me to wonder: Contemporary is/was a fairly prolific label back then, isn't/wasn't it? Another album I would think fits this bill is Clifford Jordan's GLASS BEAD GAMES (smaller label, spiritual jazz) but an original of that, while pricey, doesn't command near the bucks BL commands.

[JSngry]

We are, thanks! Same for you and yours!

[sidewinder]

I seem to have been lucky with this one. My vinyl copy, a white label promo, was about £25 I think. Picked up the CD for about a fiver.

[Mark Stryker]

43 minutes ago, Big Al said:

Missed ya, brother. Hope you're doing well.

That makes sense. But then that leads me to wonder: Contemporary is/was a fairly prolific label back then, isn't/wasn't it? Another album I would think fits this bill is Clifford Jordan's GLASS BEAD GAMES (smaller label, spiritual jazz) but an original of that, while pricey, doesn't command near the bucks BL commands.

One difference is that Glass Bead Games has now been reissued several times on audiophile vinyl so there are additional, available options beyond originals if you want it on LP. That's not the case with Blackstone Legacy. I also think that Glass Bead Games isn't as firmly planted in the "spiritual" camp because it's (a) less modal than Blackstone Legacy and (b) lacks some of the other loose markers of the genre such, say, as the African vibe of the cover and the word "black" in the title, vs. the typography-forward cover of Glass Bead Games and its  Hermann Hesse-derived name.  

To be clear: I'm not condoning the collector mentality, just trying to explain it. 

Full disclosure: I do live partly in that world, but I'm not insane. There but for the grace of God  and all that. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[felser]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

For whatever reason, Woody's next Contemporary side, Song Of Songs, was easily found.

One reason may be that it's not nearly as good an album.  Have always been hugely disappointed in it compared to 'Blackstone Legacy'.  Had them both on vinyl back in the day, on CD now.  I remember I had to special order 'Blackstone Legacy', pay for it in advance (meaningful $ to me back then), and wait weeks for it to come in.

[soulpope]

Still own the vinyl .... the CD doesn't feature the complete music, right .... ?

[clifford_thornton]

52 minutes ago, Big Al said:

Missed ya, brother. Hope you're doing well.

That makes sense. But then that leads me to wonder: Contemporary is/was a fairly prolific label back then, isn't/wasn't it? Another album I would think fits this bill is Clifford Jordan's GLASS BEAD GAMES (smaller label, spiritual jazz) but an original of that, while pricey, doesn't command near the bucks BL commands.

Glass Bead Games in its "original" form is a $500 record. It was pressed multiple times in the US and also given a Japanese reissue (not to mention recent reissues).

I've had two different early pressings of the Shaw -- medium green labels with gold type, and yellow with black type. The yellow label sounds/sounded better than the green label. Both were about ten bucks (albeit many years ago). I cannot imagine paying $250 for it, though it's a good record (not a great one).

[sidewinder]

Yes, ‘Glass Bead Games’ in the early/original Strata-East 2LP was always higher priced and more elusive than Blackstone Legacy. The Pure Pleasure seems to have had mixed reports and is reputedly a needle drop I think.

Many years ago I got the chance to ask John Koenig about these Shaw Contemporary recording sessions. Apparently the sessions were a bit chaotic - I think he referred to Shaw as being ‘well lubricated’.

Edited November 17, 2022 by sidewinder

[colinmce]

This whole "spiritual" jazz fad is a plague on innumerable levels, this being just one.

And if you think this is crazy check out the prices on the Herb Ellis/Remo Palmier Concord(!!) LP, apparently a youtube algorithmic sensation. 

[sidewinder]

1 minute ago, colinmce said:

This whole "spiritual" jazz fad is a plague on innumerable levels, this being just one.

Ironic as when much of this stuff came out, it hardly registered interest and in many cases you couldn’t give it away. The jazz press, by and large, was lukewarm too.

[colinmce]

Just now, sidewinder said:

Ironic as when much of this stuff came out, it hardly registered interest and in many cases you couldn’t give it away. The jazz press, by and large, was lukewarm too.

and generally with good reason. 

[clifford_thornton]

3 minutes ago, colinmce said:

This whole "spiritual" jazz fad is a plague on innumerable levels, this being just one.

yes. the social media jazz cred thing is really exhausting. I don't want to hear anybody talking about it for a while. Luckily only true heads can deal with Steve Lacy!

[Rabshakeh]

8 minutes ago, colinmce said:

This whole "spiritual" jazz fad is a plague on innumerable levels, this being just one.

And if you think this is crazy check out the prices on the Herb Ellis/Remo Palmier Concord(!!) LP, apparently a youtube algorithmic sensation. 

YouTube’s algorithm is surprisingly excellent for jazz.

[Chuck Nessa]

27 minutes ago, soulpope said:

Still own the vinyl .... the CD doesn't feature the complete music, right .... ?

The CD is complete.

Still have an original "Glass Bead Games".

[soulpope]

15 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

The CD (Blackstone Legacy) is complete.

Ok, thnx ....

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Still have an original "Glass Bead Games".

Same. Bought it out of a cutout bin, as I was able to do with more than a few SE sides in the mid 70s.

Still wondering about how so much inventory got dumped seemingly at once. 

[colinmce]

FYI Amazon has the Blackstone Legacy CD in stock. I ordered one last year to replace my sold copy; I will check tonight to see if it's a CD-R, I honestly don't remember. 

[Big Al]

3 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

yes. the social media jazz cred thing is really exhausting. I don't want to hear anybody talking about it for a while. Luckily only true heads can deal with Steve Lacy!

Which Steve Lacy? Apparently there are two now.

3 hours ago, soulpope said:

Still own the vinyl .... the CD doesn't feature the complete music, right .... ?

Not according to the booklet. Then again, nobody I know can tell me what exactly is missing. May just be a couple of early fade-outs for all I know.

3 hours ago, colinmce said:

This whole "spiritual" jazz fad is a plague on innumerable levels, this being just one.

Amen!