Sonny Rollins "Blue 7" from Saxophone Colossus

[Teasing the Korean]

I remember many decades ago picking up the reissue of Saxophone Colossus and reading liner notes written by Martin Williams in 1964, eight years after the recording of the album in 1956.

He writes that "Blue 7," at 11:18, represents "one of the few truly successful extended performances on record." He later calls it a masterpiece, and mentions that Gunther Schuller writes about it in Jazz Panorama.  

Obviously, jazz recorded during the 78 era was by necessity limited to three-minute running times, and the LP allowed for longer explorations in which soloists could play more than one chorus.  

My question is - and my collection is not arranged chronologically - were there many 10- to 12-minute tracks on jazz LPs prior to "Blue 7," and if so, how do they stack up against "Blue 7?"  I know offhand that there are long tracks on the Ellington Masterpieces and Uptown albums.  And "Diminuendo And Crescendo In Blue" on the Newport '56 album clocks in at around 14 minutes.  

How much competition did "Blue 7" have, in terms of length, by 1956?

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

There were a lot of long cuts, mostly jams.

This was not that. 

[Teasing the Korean]

7 minutes ago, JSngry said:

There were a lot of long cuts, mostly jams.

This was not that. 

Understood that it was not a jam.  But were there any other long cuts by 1956 that could compare?

[JSngry]

Schuller did more than just "write about it" btw. He did a thorough analysis of it, so thorough that Sonny got creeped out by it, so well did Schuller codify what was an organic thought process of Rollins'. "Thematic improvisation" became forevermore associated with Sonny Rollins, and I don't know if Sonny liked being associated with such a reductive concept, even an essentially accurate one. 

It's a remarkable piece of writing about a remarkable piece of playing. 

Just now, Teasing the Korean said:

Understood that it was not a jam.  But were there any other long cuts by 1956 that could compare?

Not really, which was the point. There were long jams, but they were just that - jams. Gonzalez played a great solo, and he built it well, but, really, he could have started and/or stopped at any point and it still would have been a fine outing 

You can't really say that about "Blue 7".

[felser]

"Nica's Dream" by The Jazz Messengers is another outstanding extended track from 1956.  "Blue 7" is sublime.

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Schuller did more than just "write about it" btw. He did a thorough analysis of it, so thorough that Sonny got creeped out by it, so well did Schuller codify what was an organic thought process of Rollins'. "Thematic improvisation" became forevermore associated with Sonny Rollins, and I don't know if Sonny liked being associated with such a reductive concept, even an essentially accurate one. 

It's a remarkable piece of writing about a remarkable piece of playing. 

Not really, which was the point. There were long jams, but they were just that - jams. Gonzalez played a great solo, and he built it well, but, really, he could have started and/or stopped at any point and it still would have been a fine outing 

You can't really say that about "Blue 7".

Another shorter and lesser known track that has a similar thematic intensity is this one. Bassist is Henry Grimes, drummer is Specs Wright. And don't forget "Wagon Wheels" from "Way Out West." 

 

[JSngry]

Sonny was in that zone during that time. I can see why the Schuller piece got inside his head like it did. It had to have been a loss of innocence of sorts. 

[Guy Berger]

2 hours ago, felser said:

"Nica's Dream" by The Jazz Messengers is another outstanding extended track from 1956.  "Blue 7" is sublime.

This is indeed a great track. But it isn’t an extended, focused improvisation by a single soloist, unlike “Blue 7”

[Steve Gray]

Walkin' by Miles. Over 13 minutes

[Larry Kart]

But "Walkin',"  fine as it is, is pretty much a jam track.

[Mark Stryker]

In that era, "Blues for Philly Joe" is another masterpiece of thematic development. Not as iconic or extended as "Blue Seven" but more swinging and a lot more fun. https://dokumen.tips/documents/blues-for-philly-joe-sonny-rollins-solo.html

Edited November 7, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[Big Beat Steve]

16 hours ago, JSngry said:

Schuller did more than just "write about it" btw. He did a thorough analysis of it, so thorough that Sonny got creeped out by it, so well did Schuller codify what was an organic thought process of Rollins'. "Thematic improvisation" became forevermore associated with Sonny Rollins, and I don't know if Sonny liked being associated with such a reductive concept, even an essentially accurate one. 

It's a remarkable piece of writing about a remarkable piece of playing. 

 

Is this essay available online somewhere, maybe?

[JSngry]

I have it in Jazz Panorama, iirc.

For the 21st Century, it is here: SonnyRollinsAndChallengeOfThematicImprov.pdf (jazzstudiesonline.org)

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks for the link!
Not that I'd claim I would be able to grasp the finer points of Schuller's analysis but I imagine it will be interesting listening attentively to the tune with the text within reach.

[felser]

I think I remember reading somewhere that Sonny's response to the Schuller article was something like "Really, I did all that?  I thought I just played the saxophone."

[JSngry]

The thing is that there's almost certainly no way that Rollins was consciously thinking in the way that Schuller analyzes. But - what Schuller calls out is most definitely there. So if you're a player who reads their own reviews (and Sonny was, as many are), this is the kind of thing that you can't really say "that's not what I'm doing", because it is. But it's not HOW you're getting there. So then, and apparently this happened to Rollins for a while, he got to wondering, ok, how DID I do that?

And that, as they say, was "Paradise Lost", a layer of innocence in the creative process lost forever.

 

[Larry Kart]

15 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Another shorter and lesser known track that has a similar thematic intensity is this one. Bassist is Henry Grimes, drummer is Specs Wright. And don't forget "Wagon Wheels" from "Way Out West." 

 

BTW, I hear a resemblance between this song by Bob Wells (who he?--  it was originally an Eckstine number)  and "Old Devil Moon" from "Finian's Rainbow," a tune that as we know Rollins played the hell out of.

2 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

BTW, I hear a resemblance between this song by Bob Wells (who he?--  it was originally an Eckstine number)  and "Old Devil Moon" from "Finian's Rainbow," a tune that as we know Rollins played the hell out of.

I see now that Wells wrote the words for Mel Torme's "Christmas Song"; Mel wrote the music.

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

BTW, I hear a resemblance between this song by Bob Wells (who he?--  it was originally an Eckstine number)  and "Old Devil Moon" from "Finian's Rainbow," a tune that as we know Rollins played the hell out of.

I see now that Wells wrote the words for Mel Torme's "Christmas Song"; Mel wrote the music.

According to Tormé, the song was written in July^[1] during a blistering hot summer. In an effort to "stay cool by thinking cool", the most-performed (according to BMI) Christmas song was born.^[2][4][5] "I saw a spiral pad on his (Wells's) piano with four lines written in pencil", Tormé recalled. "They started, 'Chestnuts roasting..., Jack Frostnipping..., Yuletide carols..., Folks dressed up like Eskimos.' Bob didn't think he was writing a song lyric. He said he thought if he could immerse himself in winter he could cool off. Forty minutes later that song was written. I wrote all the music and some of the lyrics."

1 minute ago, Larry Kart said:

According to Tormé, the song was written in July^[1] during a blistering hot summer. In an effort to "stay cool by thinking cool", the most-performed (according to BMI) Christmas song was born.^[2][4][5] "I saw a spiral pad on his (Wells's) piano with four lines written in pencil", Tormé recalled. "They started, 'Chestnuts roasting..., Jack Frostnipping..., Yuletide carols..., Folks dressed up like Eskimos.' Bob didn't think he was writing a song lyric. He said he thought if he could immerse himself in winter he could cool off. Forty minutes later that song was written. I wrote all the music and some of the lyrics."

Most performed Christmas song? What about "White Christmas"?

[JSngry]

I wish that Sonny had recorded "Frosty The Snowman", something bouncy.

[jazzbo]

Or "Good King {What's his Name}" which is not a dissimilar tune.