A statement on the continued decline of music in popular culture.

[CJ Shearn]

https://bit.ly/3LfEmUC

The fact the rapper PnBRock's song "Selfish"  is no. 1 on Apple Music says a ton about where we are in society.  Really tragic the guy was killed yesterday, over something as stupid as his jewelry, but its also what you get with the tomfoolery that this current era of hip hop espouses.

[felser]

I exited  30+ years ago when I realized I despised both musical subgenres which then dominated (grunge and new jack), and I've never encountered anything which compels me to return.

[JSngry]

Is it just hip-hop? Spent any time on any of the various Country stations lately? Or whatever Rock radio there is?

I'll not blame the product, the product is just giving the people what they want.

[felser]

32 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Or whatever Rock radio there is?

I'll not blame the product, the product is just giving the people what they want.

AFAIK, commercial rock radio no longer exists.  There was a time when  innovation could get played and sold, but that seems long gone.

[JSngry]

All I ever hears is "Classic Rock" interest in which I have less than none.

Country radio can be interesting for however long it is before the formulas sink become apparent, which for me is usually halfway through the first song. But they are incorporating some basic elements of hip-hop beat making in some of the stuff. But once the WTF? reaction fades, it's still the same old same old.

I can have fun with Tejano radio, probably because I understand only a few of the words. And even there...formulas are formulas.

Really though - why stop at music? Pop culture in general is besotted with a creepily necrophilic narcissism.

[Rabshakeh]

Is this right? I grew up in the late 90s and early 00s. Commercial music-wise, that was a total wasteland. The 10 years from 2007 - 2017 strike me as far stronger, although it does feel like the last five have been nothing like as good.

[Jim Duckworth]

Rock music was having a watershed year when I was 14 back in 1971.  I recall buying and loving Sticky Fingers, Who's Next, and as many others as my very limited income would allow.  Rock music seemed to change within a couple of years, becoming (as I saw it) more formulaic less interesting. This is how I became a jazz fan.

[JSngry]

I was 14 in 1969, and the field was already narrowing for me.

Kids my age were all up into the Grand Funk Railroad crap and anything else that was loud, simple, and (often) stupid. So Fall of 1970 (after a summer of Zappa) , I got introduced to a rather narrow range of jazz. Even though it was a narrow range, it was infinitely more interesting (in many ways) than the stuff everybody was getting in to. So I flipped the switch more or less right away. There were some interesting rock/pop things still, but mostly R&B and some other stuff that had jazz inflections and or implications. That switch flipped pretty hard.

I got so alienated from the rock/pop musics that from 1972-1973, the only radio I listened to was this FM "Easy Listening" station, because they played a lot of records of standards, multiple versions in multiple styles, and as my jazz awareness grew, so did my awareness of standards. so...that worked. And once in a while they would play some unobtrusive jazz. That was where I heard Lenny Breau! "King of the Road"!

[felser]

33 minutes ago, Jim Duckworth said:

Rock music was having a watershed year when I was 14 back in 1971.  I recall buying and loving Sticky Fingers, Who's Next, and as many others as my very limited income would allow.  Rock music seemed to change within a couple of years, becoming (as I saw it) more formulaic less interesting. This is how I became a jazz fan.

Same here, same timeframe, and it continued downhill from there.  Led Zeppelin IV was another seminal 1971 album.  And Carole King Tapestry was a landmark pop album.  And there were countless other excellent albums.  And 1965-1970 were all great years for pop/rock music.  Soul/R&B continued to be really good throughout the 70's, even when disco came in.

Edited September 15, 2022 by felser

[danasgoodstuff]

As always, thanks to CJ for being willing to put her feelings and thoughts 'bout stuff out there for all to see and react to.  Maybe music isn't where we should be looking for cultural resonance or whatever anymore.  Maybe, but then what?  Maybe culture or resonance or whatever aren't the thing.  Larger forces are at work here and I often feel less and less able to understand them, much less have any effect on them.  The track in question seems pretty generic and weak to me, but it means something to somebody.  And much of what's trotted out as evidence of how much better things used to be doesn't mean that much to me either anymore and often never did.  But then I think chicken 'n waffles are a weird thing, so what do I know?

[clifford_thornton]

I think it's pretty awful that someone got shot.

The pop music world is pretty unappealing to me and long has been. Grew up in the dawn of MTV and became quickly familiar with the idea of music as an image to be sold. Realized that that image was unattainable for me and embracing eccentricity and complexity was more my speed. But the mindset that drives pop music will always be there in some form or another -- it's a commodity, plain and simple, and occasionally that intersects with actual musicality. 

Also, tastes change -- things that I thought were pap years ago sometimes reveal nuance. 

New Jack is pretty terrible but late '80s 'grunge' has a lot of quality music. Not the watered-down versions sold on MTV but the real stuff that was being released on SubPop, Homestead, Amphetamine Reptile, Touch & Go, C/Z, etc., that music is intense.

[felser]

25 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

New Jack is pretty terrible but late '80s 'grunge' has a lot of quality music. Not the watered-down versions sold on MTV but the real stuff that was being released on SubPop, Homestead, Amphetamine Reptile, Touch & Go, C/Z, etc., that music is intense.

I came of age in the era of the Fender Stratocaster guitar hero - Hendrix, Duane Allman, Rory Gallagher, Pete Townshend, Jimmy Page, Alvin Lee, Kim Simmonds, early Carlos Santana, etc., (I do realize some of them played Gibson Les Paul's) so grunge just never has sounded right to me.  Not familiar with the deep stuff you refer to, but I've tried Nirvana, Pearl Jam, etc. enough times to know it's not for me.  I do get off on "Smells Like Teen Spirit", but that's about it.

[JSngry]

I liked New Jack actually. But I had the advantage of paying in a band or two that knew how to cover the tunes effectively in a club setting. Let's just say that the drummers who could do it right had...well-developed biceps. And they knew how to tune their kits.

It was a very physical music meant to make the body move in infinite but unambiguous ways. I liked the results when done with that in mind on all sides.

[colinmce]

4 hours ago, Jim Duckworth said:

Rock music was having a watershed year when I was 14 back in 1971.  I recall buying and loving Sticky Fingers, Who's Next, and as many others as my very limited income would allow.  Rock music seemed to change within a couple of years, becoming (as I saw it) more formulaic less interesting. This is how I became a jazz fan.

The same thing happens in cycles, maybe has to do with aging out of the time you came up in. I was deep into the underground/indie rock scene in the 90s, which I felt (and still do feel) was thriving then. I felt like by the early 2000s that something had shifted in that music in the same way; less interesting by far. Hence, also, my turn to jazz. 

[AllenLowe]

not to digress, but I actually invented AOR (Album oriented rock). When I first started listening to WOR, the first progressive rock station, in about 1966 or 1967, they still played only singles. I (either 12 or 13 at the time) wrote a letter suggesting they play all cuts from albums. I never got a response, but about a month later they started doing exactly that. No station had ever done that. I believe they got the idea from me.

 

[jlhoots]

Some nostalgia rearing its head here. I still like what I like & dislike what I don't like. Who cares (except me)??

[Dub Modal]

New Jack is the fucking shit. Never heard of the artist in question but RIP. 

[CJ Shearn]

5 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

not to digress, but I actually invented AOR (Album oriented rock). When I first started listening to WOR, the first progressive rock station, in about 1966 or 1967, they still played only singles. I (either 12 or 13 at the time) wrote a letter suggesting they play all cuts from albums. I never got a response, but about a month later they started doing exactly that. No station had ever done that. I believe they got the idea from me.

 

6 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

I think it's pretty awful that someone got shot.

The pop music world is pretty unappealing to me and long has been. Grew up in the dawn of MTV and became quickly familiar with the idea of music as an image to be sold. Realized that that image was unattainable for me and embracing eccentricity and complexity was more my speed. But the mindset that drives pop music will always be there in some form or another -- it's a commodity, plain and simple, and occasionally that intersects with actual musicality. 

Also, tastes change -- things that I thought were pap years ago sometimes reveal nuance. 

New Jack is pretty terrible but late '80s 'grunge' has a lot of quality music. Not the watered-down versions sold on MTV but the real stuff that was being released on SubPop, Homestead, Amphetamine Reptile, Touch & Go, C/Z, etc., that music is intense.

It is awful he got shot... for no reason other than the stuff IG and TikTok peddles as hip hop culture. My former aide exposed me to more hood culture than I was comfortable with and theres a heavy dose of it several blocks from me, not only do I find the constant posturing and constant emphasis on "stuff" as a measure of self worth silly, I view it as a survival mechanism from the outside looking in. I'm glad that world is not a part of mine but if you can straddle the two worlds? Cool. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by CJ Shearn

[T.D.]

13 hours ago, CJ Shearn said:

https://bit.ly/3LfEmUC

The fact the rapper PnBRock's song "Selfish"  is no. 1 on Apple Music says a ton about where we are in society.  Really tragic the guy was killed yesterday, over something as stupid as his jewelry, but its also what you get with the tomfoolery that this current era of hip hop espouses.

Not meaning to be an old curmudgeon or belittle a tragedy, but haven't rappers been getting murdered for decades? Tupac (1996) was the first big case I heard of.

See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murdered_hip_hop_musicians

"Two studies in the mid-2010s concluded that murder was the cause of 51.5% of hip hop musician deaths. The average age of death is between 25–30 years of age. Hip hop has a higher rate of homicide than any other genre of music, ranging from five to 32 times higher."

[Teasing the Korean]

3 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

not to digress, but I actually invented AOR (Album oriented rock). When I first started listening to WOR, the first progressive rock station, in about 1966 or 1967, they still played only singles. I (either 12 or 13 at the time) wrote a letter suggesting they play all cuts from albums. I never got a response, but about a month later they started doing exactly that. No station had ever done that. I believe they got the idea from me.

Thanks for that!  

[felser]

3 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

not to digress, but I actually invented AOR (Album oriented rock). When I first started listening to WOR, the first progressive rock station, in about 1966 or 1967, they still played only singles. I (either 12 or 13 at the time) wrote a letter suggesting they play all cuts from albums. I never got a response, but about a month later they started doing exactly that. No station had ever done that. I believe they got the idea from me.

 

Yet another in your long line of outstanding achievements.  Our generation thanks you😄

[JSngry]

Wait, is New Jack and New Jack Swing the same thing? Starting to think it's not? What I'm think of is from Bobby Brown etc. back in the day. I LOVE that stuff.

If this is something else, please excuse an old guy. 

 

[Rooster_Ties]

9 minutes ago, JSngry said:

What I'm think of is from Bobby Brown etc. back in the day. I LOVE that stuff.

Yeah, back in college around 1989-92 I worked on-air in a modified top-40 format (CHR=Contemporary Hits Radio, with less aggressive stuff M-F during the workday, and slightly more aggressive stuff in the evenings and on weekends)…

…and we played a fair bit of New Jack Swing — not tons and tons, but maybe the best (or best-known) 25-30 songs from the genre. And that stuff kicks!!

I’ve never owned any, but I’ve almost bought a couple good V/A CD-comps of it a few times.  Not my bag, but that stuff — much of it — is damn satisfying.

Edited September 16, 2022 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

It's like Sonny Payne only different. Totally different. But only once you know that it's not 

New Jack Basie, ok? Think on it! 

   

[CJ Shearn]

2 hours ago, T.D. said:

Not meaning to be an old curmudgeon or belittle a tragedy, but haven't rappers been getting murdered for decades? Tupac (1996) was the first big case I heard of.

See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murdered_hip_hop_musicians

"Two studies in the mid-2010s concluded that murder was the cause of 51.5% of hip hop musician deaths. The average age of death is between 25–30 years of age. Hip hop has a higher rate of homicide than any other genre of music, ranging from five to 32 times higher."

True.  This, because the art and the street are intrinsically linked.  Jazz had this component too but its not like Miles attempted to murder Lee Morgan or Freddie or whatever.