Basie at the Crescendo

[Larry Kart]

just arrived. That sax section!

Anyone able to sort out the tenor soloists? I think I can detect Billy Mitchell, but otherwise I'm unsure.

[JSngry]

Wess is immediately identifiable to my ears on both alto and tenor. So if it's not Wess or Mitchell, it's gotta be Foster.

[Larry Kart]

Yes, Wess is warmer, has more of a buzz to his sound than Foster, but on "Plymouth Rock #1," where they go back and forth, I got confused. I'll listen harder.

[JSngry]

Good question...listening now and hearing bits of all three!

[John L]

The Crescendo recordings are quite enjoyable.   That said, there was a time in the history of the Basie band when there would never be any question about which tenor was playing.  

[JSngry]

And that dynamic would exist any time that Lockjaw was in the band. Eric Dixon made a wonderful foil.

And then, later on Dixon and Jimmy Forrest.

For that matter, Foster and Wesson, pretty distinctive. It's having Billy Mitchell in the mix that's a wild card. I know him as a small group player. It's possible for a personality to become diffused playing in a big band, odd as that might sound. 

 

[Mark Stryker]

I don't have access to the recording at the moment, but the Lord discography says the saxophone section for these gigs is Royal and Wess on altos,  Mitchell and Foster on tenors, and Fowlkes on baritone

[Chuck Nessa]

1 hour ago, Mark Stryker said:

I don't have access to the recording at the moment, but the Lord discography says the saxophone section for these gigs is Royal and Wess on altos,  Mitchell and Foster on tenors, and Fowlkes on baritone

That is the line-up on the box and the listing in Bruyninckx, undoubtedly Lord's source.

[JSngry]

It's Kenny Hing who still is a bit nebulous to me. Am I wrong? 

[Larry Kart]

The lineup on the box has Wess on alto, tenor, and flute. Clearly he solos on alto and flute and I think on tenor too. For instance, on "Plymouth Rock #`1" there are two tenor soloists, and one of them to my ears is definitely not Billy Mitchell. That leaves Wess and Foster with, again to my years, Wess soloing first.

[Mark Stryker]

2 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

The lineup on the box has Wess on alto, tenor, and flute. Clearly he solos on alto and flute and I think on tenor too. For instance, on "Plymouth Rock #`1" there are two tenor soloists, and one of them to my ears is definitely not Billy Mitchell. That leaves Wess and Foster with, again to my years, Wess soloing first.

Again, I haven't heard the recording, but it would be completely out of the band's character and general protocol for the cat sitting in the second alto chair to also play a tenor solo. 

[Chuck Nessa]

2 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

Again, I haven't heard the recording, but it would be completely out of the band's character and general protocol for the cat sitting in the second alto chair to also play a tenor solo. 

Certainly no jazz band would break protocol.

 

[Mark Stryker]

20 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Certainly no jazz band would break protocol.

 

Understood, though the New Testament Band was fairly big on protocol. However, I need to amend my earlier comment. The discography does indicate that Wess plays alto, flute, AND tenor on these recordings so, what the hell, maybe he is the second tenor soloist on Plymouth Rock. I would certainly trust Larry's ears in conjunction with the discography over suppositions based only on custom.  Must have been a pain in the ass though for Frank to schlepp a tenor around for what at best was probably a single solo a night, maybe less. On the other hand, if he wasn't playing many solos on alto, then it would've been worth it. 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

It's one night on a club date. Somebody was late or something, who knows? 

[Larry Kart]

BTW, I identify Mitchell on the basis of his tendency to work certain rapid almost Bird-like flourishes into his solos. Neither Wess nor Foster does that. So that brings me back to "Plymouth Rock #1," where I'm fairly sure two different tenor soloists can be heard. One of them has to be Foster, and the other is either Mitchell being uncharacteristic or  . . . maybe it's Sal Mystico? 

[Big Beat Steve]

Am not familiar with the CD set, but to just to be able to follow the discussion somewhat:

Could it be that this duplicates (in part) what was reissued on vinyl by Phontastic on the three volumes of "Count On The Coast" (PHONT 7546, 7555 and 7575, recorded 24 June to 3 July 1958)? Just curious because this is what I have with recordings from the Crescendo Club. Thanx.

[jazzbo]

Yes, I believe those Phontastic discs are duplicated in this box set.

[Larry Kart]

On 9/7/2022 at 10:17 PM, Mark Stryker said:

Understood, though the New Testament Band was fairly big on protocol. However, I need to amend my earlier comment. The discography does indicate that Wess plays alto, flute, AND tenor on these recordings so, what the hell, maybe he is the second tenor soloist on Plymouth Rock. I would certainly trust Larry's ears in conjunction with the discography over suppositions based only on custom.  Must have been a pain in the ass though for Frank to schlepp a tenor around for what at best was probably a single solo a night, maybe less. On the other hand, if he wasn't playing many solos on alto, then it would've been worth it. 

About protocol, the booklet for the Mosaic NT Band has numerous photographs of the band from this period and earlier in the '50s and in every one both Wess and Foster are holding tenor saxophones. Also there is at least one piece, "Two Franks," on which both men play tenor, as the title specifies.

[JSngry]

Wess & Foster were the two tenors for a good while. Ernie Wilkins played second alto. After he left. Bill Graham took his place. After Graham left, that was when Wesson moved over to alto. 

The only memorable Wesson alto solo with Basie that I can remember is this one:

[Larry Kart]

There are several good Wess alto solos on ""Basie at the Crescendo" and at least one Marshal Royal solo.

[Larry Kart]

Moving on through this set, I remain delighted by how good it is. The band sounds so fresh -- even familiar numbers like "Every Day" and "Shiny Stockings" have a newly minted feel.

A question BTW -- What the heck happened to Neal Hefti? Virtually everything he wrote for Basie pretty much just kills, but his post-Basie work, with the exception IIRC of one Epic album under his own name --was it "Hefti, Hot, and Hearty"? -- is pretty dismal poppish stuff., some with vocal ensembles going "doo-wah."I can see Hefti going in a more poppish direction in an attempt to cash in somehow, but I'm not aware that this ever happened. What was he thinking?

Oops, I'm forgetting "Batman." 

[JSngry]

Girl Talk 

Odd Couple 

Beaucoup movie and TV gigs 

What happened to him is that he probably died rich. 

 

[colinmce]

I didn’t realize this set was out there. Just picked one up and am looking forward to digging in. Thanks!

[Larry Kart]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

Girl Talk 

Odd Couple 

Beaucoup movie and TV gigs 

What happened to him is that he probably died rich. 

 

Kinda figured something like that, but all his Basie work was expert of its kind, as was the TV work you mentioned -- don't know his movie gigs -- and "Girl Talk," annoying though it may be, was expert of its kind too. But again his immediate post-Basie work under his own name, with one exception, struck me as quite lame, in concept and execution. Nice eventual gear shift then on Mr. Hefti's part. 

[Big Beat Steve]

3 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Kinda figured something like that, but all his Basie work was expert of its kind, as was the TV work you mentioned -- don't know his movie gigs -- and "Girl Talk," annoying though it may be, was expert of its kind too. But again his immediate post-Basie work under his own name, with one exception, struck me as quite lame, in concept and execution. Nice eventual gear shift then on Mr. Hefti's part. 

Weeell ... I find his 1956 Coral LP "The Band with Young Ideas" (part of which had previously been released on the 10" "Swingin' On A Coral Reef" LP in 1953) was quite a bit more commercial and dance band-ish than his charts for the Basie band too. I bought this at a time I had gotten into the Roulette Basie recordings, probably expecting more of the Hefti punch with the Basie or Herman bands, but felt a bit underwhelmed. Quite listenable but more conventional than I probably expected. At any rate, in the context of 50s big bands across the board, I didn't find it as full of "young" ideas as the title suggested. He clearly did not go for the "big band JAZZ" audience.
So maybe an early sign of commercial and monetarily more rewarding later things?
To me it looks like Jepsen was right in not including these two releases in his Neal Hefti entry. (His exclusions were more debatable in other cases but here he had a point IMO)

I wonder what others think of "Steve Allen plays Neal Hefti" of 1958. I've read good period reviews of it but never scored a copy of it yet.