Remembering Creed Taylor

[Larry Kart]

I understand your "by then" now, Jim.

[felser]

29 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

The title track on Sunflower is one of my favorite things in the CTI catalog.

One of mine too.  I think the title track from Hubbard's 'First Light' may be my very favorite CTI cut.

[Peter Friedman]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

Why would you be surprised that somebody has a different opinion than yours?

Besides, it's not a "Bags at his best" thing. It's a "one of his best records" thing.

Perhaps you don't understand the difference? 

What you actually said - "there is not a a better Milt Jackson recording than "Sunflower".

If that does not strongly suggest - "Bags at his best", it sure sounds like it to me.

I do very clearly understand the difference. It is not surprising to me that people hold different opinions. The fact that so many on this Board had such a high opinion of "Sunflower" did surprise me.

I believe everyone has the right to be surprised.

[JSngry]

It's the Sound Of Surprise!!!!

[CJ Shearn]

Whoever said Sunflower is schmaltzy to them, I understand that comment and I can't really argue it.  I will say that, and I love that album, the shit Herbie plays behind Freddie on "For Someone I Love" and Billy Cobham's responses to Herbie are anything but. I watched a recent interview with Cobham where he said it's one of his favorite CTI sessions. Now, Bobby Hutcherson Natural Illusions for me OTOH is an absolute dog and his worst Blue Note by far. It gives Jim's comment weight Blue Note was done by '72. It strikes me as an attempt to be their version of a Sunflower cash in and absolutely inline with musak. If Bobby made an album resembling Satie's definition of furniture music, that's it.

Edited September 4, 2022 by CJ Shearn

[Ken Dryden]

I am still puzzled why Milt Jackson recorded the obvious turkey “Feelings” and made it the title cut of a Pablo LP. Most musicians I’ve known despised that inane song.

[CJ Shearn]

6 minutes ago, Ken Dryden said:

I am still puzzled why Milt Jackson recorded the obvious turkey “Feelings” and made it the title cut of a Pablo LP. Most musicians I’ve known despised that inane song.

I was gonna mention that

[JSngry]

Herbie had a history with Creed Taylor, btw, going back to Verve. What he played on the CTI dates is neither unexpected, unprecedented, not out of line with what he had been playing all along. 

[danasgoodstuff]

I'm not going to try to argue that Natural Illusions isn't the weakest of Hutcherson's Blue Notes, but it's not unlistenable.  And most of his '70s work for the label is strong, some of it as good as anything he ever did or anyone else on mallets ever did.  Consider this from '75:

Bobby Hutcherson - People Make The World Go Round - YouTube

I think this is every bit as good as the version of this tune Milt did for CTI

[CJ Shearn]

4 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

I'm not going to try to argue that Natural Illusions isn't the weakest of Hutcherson's Blue Notes, but it's not unlistenable.  And most of his '70s work for the label is strong, some of it as good as anything he ever did or anyone else on mallets ever did.  Consider this from '75:

Bobby Hutcherson - People Make The World Go Round - YouTube

I think this is every bit as good as the version of this tune Milt did for CTI

Oh yeah, I love Linger Lane.  For me, that album is quite underrated, and the fact it was recorded outside gives it a unique vibe.  I recently got the Japanese CD version.

[JSngry]

That's a really good song. Try the Johnny Lytle version with Marvin Cabell, on Milestone.

Hell, try the original! 

 

[Daniel A]

11 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

 Consider this from '75:

Bobby Hutcherson - People Make The World Go Round - YouTube

I think this is every bit as good as the version of this tune Milt did for CTI

I still think Milt's version is better. 🙂 And I wonder who came up with the concept, as there's a similar version by Freddie Hubbard for CTI, recorded half a year earlier (issued on 'Polar AC'), which was arranged by Bob James.

But there's so much to enjoy on CTI overall. Where else would you for example hear Paul Desmond in the 60s with the rhythm section of Airto Moreira, Ron Carter and Herbie Hancock (on the album 'Summertime')?

Edited September 4, 2022 by Daniel A

[JSngry]

Freddie's original version on Backlash seems a bit underdone by comparison, imo. 

[Mark Stryker]

Alfred Lion, Creed Taylor, and Manfred Eicher had a ton in common as producer-owners starting with the fact that you can, with only a few exceptions, instantly identify a Blue Note, CTI, or ECM record in a blindfold test no matter who the artist is. You can also identify each label's records from the packaging without ever hearing a note of the music. 

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Freddie's original version on Backlash seems a bit underdone by comparison, imo. 

Listening again to this. Check out a lot of Albert Dailey's comping. Easily translatable to an orchestral concept. 

[danasgoodstuff]

21 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

Alfred Lion, Creed Taylor, and Manfred Eicher had a ton in common as producer-owners starting with the fact that you can, with only a few exceptions, instantly identify a Blue Note, CTI, or ECM record in a blindfold test no matter who the artist is. You can also identify each label's records from the packaging without ever hearing a note of the music. 

This is certainly true, and a remarkable accomplishment.  As is the fact that we're still talking about them all these decades later.  There are also very significant differences in how they did things which result in very different product.  There are albums on ECM and CTI which I love, but it's not a coincidence that I own a relative handful of those and damn near everything on BN til Francis Wolf died.

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

That's a really good song. Try the Johnny Lytle version with Marvin Cabell, on Milestone.

Hell, try the original! 

 

Maybe we should do a thread on jazz versions of Tom Bell tunes, or Philly soul in general.

[Mark Stryker]

On 8/31/2022 at 6:01 PM, Larry Kart said:

Ordered it, in a two-fer with "Goodbye." I would put in a vote, though (yes, different eras, apples and oranges) for the "Milt Jackson Quartet" (Prestige), with superb comping from Horace Silver, and "The Jazz Skyline" (Savoy), with Lucky Thompson, Hank Jones, Wendel Marshall, and Kenny Clarke.

FWIW, the three Milt Jackson records I recommend at the end of the chapter about him in my book are: Milt Jackson Quartet (Prestige), Sunflower (CTI), and the Fresh Sounds release that collects the Savoy and Atlantic sessions (but I I had to go with a single LP from this it would be either "The Jazz Skyline" or "Jackson's Ville" on Savoy). Since the Pablo records have come up in this thread, for me the best small group one by far is "Soul Fusion" with Monty Alexander's Trio (Clayton/Hamilton). I also like some of the tracks from the Bags/Basie Orchestra dates but long for different drummer than Butch Miles. 

[Teasing the Korean]

Many years ago, I started an award-winning Organissimo thread titled SNL Sax. 

I loaded a bunch of CTI stuff into a playlist, and I found myself deleting the stuff by Hank Crawford, who seems to favor the SNL Sax sound.

[danasgoodstuff]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

That's a really good song. Try the Johnny Lytle version with Marvin Cabell, on Milestone.

Hell, try the original! 

 

Maybe we should do a thread on jazz versions of Tom Bell tunes, or Philly soul in general.

29 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Many years ago, I started an award-winning Organissimo thread titled SNL Sax. 

I loaded a bunch of CTI stuff into a playlist, and I found myself deleting the stuff by Hank Crawford, who seems to favor the SNL Sax sound.

Remember it well.  I love Hank Crawford, but think his work for CTI/Kudu is the least likely to end up on my playlist.

[felser]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

That's a really good song. Try the Johnny Lytle version with Marvin Cabell, on Milestone.

Hell, try the original! 

 

Always been a favorite of mine, and probably the Stylistics' greatest moment (among many).

54 minutes ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Maybe we should do a thread on jazz versions of Tom Bell tunes, or Philly soul in general.

Works for me.

[JSngry]

Saying that Hank Crawford favors the SNL sax sound is like saying that Ray Charles favors the Tom Jones vocal approach. 

1 hour ago, Mark Stryker said:

Alfred Lion, Creed Taylor, and Manfred Eicher had a ton in common as producer-owners starting with the fact that you can, with only a few exceptions, instantly identify a Blue Note, CTI, or ECM record in a blindfold test no matter who the artist is. You can also identify each label's records from the packaging without ever hearing a note of the music. 

Norman Granz as well, albeit several times in several ways. 

[Teasing the Korean]

15 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Saying that Hank Crawford favors the SNL sax sound is like saying that Ray Charles favors the Tom Jones vocal approach. 

All I can tell you is that when the track came on, I ran for the delete button.  If it is not the SNL Sax sound, it was something that irritates me equally as much. 

And I LOVES me some Tom Jones!

Edited September 4, 2022 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Who doesn't? 

[Eric]

10 hours ago, CJ Shearn said:

Oh yeah, I love Linger Lane.  For me, that album is quite underrated, and the fact it was recorded outside gives it a unique vibe.  I recently got the Japanese CD version.

Was just listening to that in the car yesterday!

[Teasing the Korean]

OK, now listening to the title track from Red Clay, and I am totally digging it.  I knew I held onto the LP for a reason, and while it may have at one time struck me as being "not CTI enough," it is certainly delivering the goods now.  I will spin the whole LP soon.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Teasing the Korean