Remembering Creed Taylor

[Rabshakeh]

Alone Together on Milestone's the only solo record of his to which I return.

[mjzee]

Regarding Ron Carter, I can highly recommend this Elektra Musician date from 1982.  Art Farmer!

[Rabshakeh]

Two questions:

What did Creed Taylor do after losing CTI the first time and the weird 90s comeback?

Upthread talk about Milt Jackson on Pablo. I like Nightmist a lot. Are there any others that really stand out?

1 hour ago, mjzee said:

Regarding Ron Carter, I can highly recommend this Elektra Musician date from 1982.  Art Farmer!

This one's pretty interesting and I enjoy it when I listen to it.

[Larry Kart]

On 8/31/2022 at 5:43 PM, JSngry said:

Apples and oranges it is, and just remember, the claim is not that it is "the best", just that there are none better.

Goodbye is really good too CTI did well by Milt, actually. 

"Sunflower"/"Goodbye" combo arrived today. I found the former soporific by and large. Both Bags and especially Hubbard (that rather smeary mewling tone he get on flugelhorn) sound like they're trying to out do Sebesky when it comes to creating or even, in Bag's case, submerging into) the background vibe. By contrast, and to my surprise, "Goodbye" was quite a plus. I much prefer Walton's relatively laid-back comping here to Hancock's "better give them something for their money" work on "Sunflower," Laws is clean, tasty and, in effect  just himself, especially compared to Hubbard's self-conscious mewling, I prefer the team of Carter/Gadd to that of Carter/Cobham, and Bags is heard at some length and in fine form.

[JSngry]

Have you never been mellow? 

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Have you never been mellow? 

I have been for sure. But I prefer more organic mellowness (e.g. that "Two Degrees East, Three Degrees West" album with John Lewis and Bill Perkins) to what seems to me to be sleepy. To amplify a bit, the mellowness of "Sunflower" strikes me as willed, even enforced.

[JSngry]

You mean they had a gun at their heads or their babies were being held hostage? 

[JSngry]

Are you saying that Milt was forced to wear all that polyester? 

[Larry Kart]

50 minutes ago, JSngry said:

You mean they had a gun at their heads or their babies were being held hostage? 

They almost certainly knew what the expected vibe was. Nobody said that Herbie, Freddie, et al were stupid.

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

What did Creed Taylor do after losing CTI the first time and the weird 90s comeback?

That's a good question...I would imagine that that he was owed money and at the same time owed money, so when that happens, most people hide out and proceed accordingly 

I also have visions (totally unfounded) of him going into a deep Phil Spector type psycho-depression with Astrud Gilberto as his Ronnie. 

Just now, Larry Kart said:

They almost certainly knew what the expected vibe was. Nobody said that Herbie, Freddie, et al were stupid.

Or that they didn't enjoy doing it 

[felser]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Have you never been mellow? 

Olivia him alone!

[JSngry]

Hey, she did a smash hit tribute to Don Schlitten, which is more than I can say about Rusty Warren 

 

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

That's a good question...I would imagine that that he was owed money and at the same time owed money, so when that happens, most people hide out and proceed accordingly 

I also have visions (totally unfounded) of him going into a deep Phil Spector type psycho-depression with Astrud Gilberto as his Ronnie. 

Or that they didn't enjoy doing it 

 

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

That's a good question...I would imagine that that he was owed money and at the same time owed money, so when that happens, most people hide out and proceed accordingly 

I also have visions (totally unfounded) of him going into a deep Phil Spector type psycho-depression with Astrud Gilberto as his Ronnie. 

Or that they didn't enjoy doing it 

I didn't say they shouldn't have enjoyed doing it -- for reasons of professional satisfaction or because of their personal aesthetic pleasure at the results etc. But if all that were so, are you saying that should then alter my sense of "Sunflower"?

[JSngry]

I would never try to alter your perception of anything. I am not a psychedelic drug 

I would wonder if your perception of the whole thing being "forced"  isn't your own reaction to whatever triggers such impressions in you rather than an objective assessment of what is going on with that record, but again, not trying to change anything.

Hey, I read Down Beat all through the 70s and Milt Jackson never did not bitch about money. Hell, about EVERYTHING. The whole arc from now that the MJQ is over I'm going to make some real money to hell, there's no money to be had playing jazz to ok, good to see the MJQ re-forming is in retrospect pretty hilarious. I mean, Sunflower was a pretty big hit, one of the core CTI records imo, and this guy goes to Pablo and cranks out, what, 89 records that combined probably sold half as much, and he's wondering where the money is. Kinda seems like Bags' Schtick to me! 

I also know that Milt Jackson never played falsely in his life, at least not that I've heard. He made all sorts of records doing all sorts of things. I doubt he loved all of them, but I also doubt that he could have done any of the any differently than he did them.

In other words, I seriously doubt that anybody could force Milt Jackson to do too much of anything! 

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I would never try to alter your perception of anything. I am not a psychedelic drug 

I would wonder if your perception of the whole thing being "forced"  isn't your own reaction to whatever triggers such impressions in you rather than an objective assessment of what is going on with that record, but again, not trying to change anything.

Hey, I read Down Beat all through the 70s and Milt Jackson never did not bitch about money. Hell, about EVERYTHING. The whole arc from now that the MJQ is over I'm going to make some real money to hell, there's no money to be had playing jazz to ok, good to see the MJQ re-forming is in retrospect pretty hilarious. I mean, Sunflower was a pretty big hit, one of the core CTI records imo, and this guy goes to Pablo and cranks out, what, 89 records that combined probably sold half as much, and he's wondering where the money is. Kinda seems like Bags' Schtick to me! 

I also know that Milt Jackson never played falsely in his life, at least not that I've heard. He made all sorts of records doing all sorts of things. I doubt he loved all of them, but I also doubt that he could have done any of the any differently than he did them.

In other words, I seriously doubt that anybody could force Milt Jackson to do too much of anything! 

I'm not saying that Milt played a false note on "Sunflower," though his contributions  to the album seem to me to be rather subdued  and/or pushed over into a corner on several tracks, to the point where one might not have thought that it was his date unless one knew upfront that it was. (BTW that's not at all the case on "Goodbye," where Bags solos boldly and at length throughout.). But if I'm right in what I just said (and you no doubt feel otherwise), who would have been responsible for that? Creed perhaps, in search of a more "concept"-oriented final result -- and certainly it was within his rights to have that goal in mind. And, yes, he was right, in terms of sales and creating an album that pleased a great many listeners. But for me "Sunflower" is, as I said, musically and emotionally rather soporific.

BTW, I suddenly thought of a potentially reasonable comparison, Grant Green's "Idle Moments." The title track is incredibly mellow -- and we all know the story, via composer Duke Pearson, of how that sublime groove quite haphazardly came about in the studio, when Green's opening solo went on twice as long as had been planned and the other soloists followed Green's example. And then the rest of album was either shaped or fell into place in a manner that harmonized with that track, this at the behest of Alfred Lion.

Also, I'm not suggesting that Creed, to achieve what might have been his goal, forced Bags to do anything. All he needed to do was exert some control over solo length/solo order and mixing.

[JSngry]

Yeah, but Blue Note was over by then. That world was over by then. So...example of something wonderful that wasn't really happening any longer. Except maybe on Bob Porter organ records?

Like it or not, Rhodes was the forefront of the new mellow. And weed had gone mainstream. Shag carpeting was what you fucked on. What the new mellow is now...hell if I know. Silencers, maybe  These are about the most unmellow times I've lived in, that's for sure.

Oh, FM. FM was by definition mellow compared to AM. And a record like Sunflower (which I obviously love) and, say, Sky Dive (which I don't even like, much less love) sounded GREAT on FM. On AM, the older records sounded better. They were not mastered for FM and badass stereos. CTI was  I had access to both jazzes radio and I was a teenager, so hey. 

Speaking of radio, I don't know how things were in your town, but on every FM jazz radio around her (except for the bullshit NTSU station), every song on Sunflower - EVERY song - stayed on the air for years, decades even. I pretty much knew that album by heart and didn't at all feel bad about it  AFAIC, if CTI has a Kind Of Blue it terms of perpetual listenability at any level, it's Sunflower. 

[danasgoodstuff]

Burrell's one CTI album is quite nice, largely because Kenny dominates it.  Grant Green's one for Kudu isn't, largely because he doesn't.  Listened to a bit of Goodbye and wasn't feeling it, but then Carter's over amplified rubber band was bugging me.  Sunflower is soft-focus schmaltz, but they commit to it so it works for me.  I bought cheap CD copies of Red Clay and Straight life, and the're ok but they definitely strike me as coasting compared to Breakin' Point or Blue Spirits.  I like Speedball on Cherry, but a quick skim through didn't turn up anything else I liked.  Love Joe F's Outback and Moon Germs but nothing else by him.  Like Blue Moses 'cause it's weird.  Like Concierto by Hall 'cause it's audacious.  I have some Art Farmer on CTI but I can't remember, I think I liked the Debussy.  I can deal with merely OK straightforward blowing sessions, fancy productions have got to totally work for me before I want to hear them at all.  And funk that's slick is an oxymoron to be, it's gotta be raw.  So there's a lot of BN after 70/71 that doesn't work for me either.  I don't know if there's anything on CTI or Kudu that I actively dislike as much as I dislike the Mizell brothers' productions for BN.  There's a lot of '70s R&B I'm not crazy about either.  and demographically that's weird.  It was the middle of the decade before I could legally drink in this country (Canada was a different deal).  Big chunks of '70s rock do little for me either.  It's not nostalgia, because I heard virtually no '60s BN til it was passe.  I probably didn't hear much CTI as it was brand new, but more new-ish.  People with fancy stereos bought them.  Yes, I know I'm rambling.  But there's nothing on CTI that even begins to compare to Blues & the Abstract Truth or signing Coltrane and issuing Africa/Brass - that's how you put someone in a new, bigger setting without cramping their style.

[Larry Kart]

9 hours ago, JSngry said:

Yeah, but Blue Note was over by then. That world was over by then. So...example of something wonderful that wasn't really happening any longer. Except maybe on Bob Porter organ records?

Like it or not, Rhodes was the forefront of the new mellow. And weed had gone mainstream. Shag carpeting was what you fucked on. What the new mellow is now...hell if I know. Silencers, maybe  These are about the most unmellow times I've lived in, that's for sure.

Oh, FM. FM was by definition mellow compared to AM. And a record like Sunflower (which I obviously love) and, say, Sky Dive (which I don't even like, much less love) sounded GREAT on FM. On AM, the older records sounded better. They were not mastered for FM and badass stereos. CTI was  I had access to both jazzes radio and I was a teenager, so hey. 

Speaking of radio, I don't know how things were in your town, but on every FM jazz radio around her (except for the bullshit NTSU station), every song on Sunflower - EVERY song - stayed on the air for years, decades even. I pretty much knew that album by heart and didn't at all feel bad about it  AFAIC, if CTI has a Kind Of Blue it terms of perpetual listenability at any level, it's Sunflower. 

Blue Note was over by Nov. '63? Are you out of your mind? Take a look at the Blue Note discography and see how many memorable
Blue Note albums came after "Idle Moments" (BN4154):

 e.g. "The Freedom Rider," "Out to Lunch"? Andrew Hill's "Judgment," Smokestack," and "Point of  Departure," Turrentine's "Hustlin,'" "The Sidewinder," McLean's "Destination Out," "Search for the New Land," Moncur's "Some Other Stuff," Hubbard's "Breaking Point"? 

BTW, I'm not disputing the vast and long-lasting popularity of "Sunflower." I'm just saying that I find it to be rather soporific.

[Peter Friedman]

15 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

"Sunflower"/"Goodbye" combo arrived today. I found the former soporific by and large. Both Bags and especially Hubbard (that rather smeary mewling tone he get on flugelhorn) sound like they're trying to out do Sebesky when it comes to creating or even, in Bag's case, submerging into) the background vibe. By contrast, and to my surprise, "Goodbye" was quite a plus. I much prefer Walton's relatively laid-back comping here to Hancock's "better give them something for their money" work on "Sunflower," Laws is clean, tasty and, in effect  just himself, especially compared to Hubbard's self-conscious mewling, I prefer the team of Carter/Gadd to that of Carter/Cobham, and Bags is heard at some length and in fine form.

Larry, nice to see that you perceive" Sunflower"  as I did. In truth, I was surprised to see that a number of people on this board held the opinion that "Sunflower" was Bags at his best.

[JSngry]

Not 63. Blue Note was over by 72.

[Larry Kart]

Maybe so. But "Idle Moments" was recorded in Nov. '63. What else do you mean by "by then"?

[JSngry]

Sunflower was done in 1972. Blue Note, Idle Moments style, was over by then. 

[John Tapscott]

On 9/2/2022 at 11:44 PM, Ken Dryden said:

I definitely don't have a large collection of CTI stuff. I feel that most of the artists on the label did far better work elsewhere, though there are gems that I treasure like Pure Desmond. 

 

Yes, Pure Desmond is a real gem and really introduced Ed Bickert to the stateside audience and lots more recording opportunities. The only thing wrong with the recording  is that there is like, 1 second between tracks, one track ends and the other begins almost immediately. Why Creed didn't insert a few more seconds between tracks is a mystery. There was lots of time to do so. 

Anyway, Pure Desmond is the only CTI record in my collection that I can think of. There may be a couple others that I'm not remembering. But there are some wonderful Creed Taylor productions, pre CTI.  

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

In truth, I was surprised to see that a number of people on this board held the opinion that "Sunflower" was Bags at his best.

Why would you be surprised that somebody has a different opinion than yours?

Besides, it's not a "Bags at his best" thing. It's a "one of his best records" thing.

Perhaps you don't understand the difference? 

[Teasing the Korean]

The title track on Sunflower is one of my favorite things in the CTI catalog.