Andrew Hill--composer

[Milestones]

Where do people place Andrew Hill as composer?  I would place him up quite high, as I'm sure many others would.  But it's curious that his pieces are rarely covered.

Other than his very first release, I think all of his albums (with few exceptions) feature strictly his own compositions.  The exceptions seem to come on some late solo piano records.  Even the greatest composers such as Ellington, Monk, and Mingus did not feature such exclusive usage of their own compostions.  Interesting!

 

[JSngry]

39 minutes ago, Milestones said:

 But it's curious that his pieces are rarely covered.

They create a very specific 'zone", and they're difficult to play outside of that zone. Most players see no career opportunity in engaging with either one of those elements, never mind both of them. 

Another example is Mingus. Outside of a handful of things that can be easily covered, who plays Mingus?

Herbie Nichols, great composer, but it who plays him?

For such a sophisticated music, it's general practitioners today are a rather doltish lot. 

[jlhoots]

Nels Cline: New Monastery

[Milestones]

As for Mingus, you can find his pieces covered by Pepper Adams, Steve Slagle, Paul Motian, Joe Lovano (at least "Duke Ellington's Sound of Love"), and others--not to mention Mingus Big Band and its variations.

 

[JSngry]

Mingus Big Band is a Mingus family business specifically created to keep that music alive because it wasn't being played.

Call a bunch of players together and ask the who knows, day, "Remember Rockefeller At Attica". Have fun with that. Or " Pithecanthropus Erectus". Or " Meditations On Integration". Or " Fables of Faubus". Or... 

Mingus has benefitted from writing a relatively few easily-enough played tunes to give the impression that his output is widely played, outside of "projects", which don't really count. 

That stuff takes work. Work, time, rehearsal, understanding, just an overall willingness and opportunity to did into it.

So much of the great jazz compositions do, and I mean real compositions, not simple song structures. That why these composers had their own bands, do they didn't have to depend on other people to play their music.

Look at Cal Massey if you want to see what happens with that. 

[Milestones]

So is it fair to say that Monk is a less complex composer than Mingus?  Actually, I think that is probably true.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Milestones

[Chuck Nessa]

4 minutes ago, Milestones said:

So is it fair that Monk is a less complex composer than Mingus?  Actually, I think that is probably true.

Maybe "more direct" would be a better label.

 

[Rooster_Ties]

56 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Maybe "more direct" would be a better label.

 

Chuck, did you and Andrew ever cross paths?

[mikeweil]

9 hours ago, Milestones said:

Where do people place Andrew Hill as composer?  I would place him up quite high, as I'm sure many others would.  But it's curious that his pieces are rarely covered.

I was delighted to read that a group of local jazz guys, pianist Uwe Oberg's trio Lacy Pool, will dedicate a project to Hill's music.

[Gheorghe]

12 hours ago, JSngry said:

 

Another example is Mingus. Outside of a handful of things that can be easily covered, who plays Mingus?

 

When I was younger and had time for rehearsals, we played "Cumbia&Jazz Fusion" on at least three occasions live. With all them sections, the ostinato bass intro, the horns comin´in and the different sections from latin to swing to a short ballad time, to the satirical "Mingus Rap" and the out chorusses and all.

Since the bass player good as he was, didn´t have the right hoarse voice, I had to take the role to "sing" that vocals......

I did Fables also, I have Meditations on Integration in my head and the changes of Rockefeller I know , but I don´t have the time any more. Not for rehearsals. Just get on stage and play the set list as it was discussed havin coffee before gig.......

For Mingus I mostly played what I heard live when he was alive, The set order he had than. I think Meditations was no more on it, but Faubus was. Sue´s Changes also, nice chords ! 

 

As for Andrew Hill, sure I love much of his works and have two BN albums of him, I think one with Joe Henderson and one with Dolphy added, and maybe as a sideman on a Bobby Hutcherson album where he also contributes compositions which are great. But  I don´t remember Andrew Hill was very much mentioned during my upcoming in the 70´s. Eveybody knew Monk and I have been playing Monk tunes all my live, but please not "Blue Monk" or "Well You Needn´t" with the Miles bridge instead of the original bridge, 
So I couldn´t say I could play an Andrew Hill tune "ad hoc" . 

He is great but maybe he was more an insider thing even during the time they recorded him. My impression is that BN hoped to discover the "next Monk" . Same with Graham Moncur III. 
They could sell very well Herbie Hancock as pianist/composer in the 60´s. 

[Chuck Nessa]

10 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Chuck, did you and Andrew ever cross paths?

Yes. Long story, but Andrew was with me when his mother passed.

[Rooster_Ties]

41 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Yes. Long story, but Andrew was with me when his mother passed.

That's ringing a bell, and I found this retelling of the story you shared about 10 years ago.  Thanks for sharing then, and now.

 

[Steve Reynolds]

19 hours ago, JSngry said:

They create a very specific 'zone", and they're difficult to play outside of that zone. Most players see no career opportunity in engaging with either one of those elements, never mind both of them. 

Another example is Mingus. Outside of a handful of things that can be easily covered, who plays Mingus?

Herbie Nichols, great composer, but it who plays him?

For such a sophisticated music, it's general practitioners today are a rather doltish lot. 

Instant Composers Pool & Clusone trio play or played a number of Herbie Nichols tunes. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by Steve Reynolds

[Guy Berger]

15 hours ago, Milestones said:

So is it fair that Monk is a less complex composer than Mingus?  Actually, I think that is probably true.

I'm trying to think of a less extreme way of saying this but: jazz listeners and musicians are much more comfortable butchering Monk's music than Mingus's music.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Guy Berger

[Rooster_Ties]

5 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

I'm trying to think of a less extreme way of saying this but:  jazz listeners and musicians are much more comfortable butchering Monk's music than Mingus's music.

This is funny, because it’s true!! 

[John L]

8 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

I'm trying to think of a less extreme way of saying this but: jazz listeners and musicians are much more comfortable butchering Monk's music than Mingus's music.

This may be due in part to the fact that people like Coleman Hawkins, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, and Miles Davis began covering Monk's compositions almost immediately, and often smoothed them out into more typical bop vehicles.  So more recent covers of Monk are often covers of these covers rather than covers of Monk proper.   

[Guy Berger]

1 minute ago, John L said:

This may be due in part to the fact that people like Coleman Hawkins, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, and Miles Davis began covering Monk's compositions almost immediately, and often smoothed them out into more typical bop vehicles.  So more recent covers of Monk are often covers of these covers rather than covers of Monk proper.   

Nicely stated.

[T.D.]

1 hour ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Instant Composers Pool & Clusone trio play or played a number of Herbie Nichols tunes. 

16 hours ago, JSngry said:

Mingus Big Band is a Mingus family business specifically created to keep that music alive because it wasn't being played.

Call a bunch of players together and ask the who knows, day, "Remember Rockefeller At Attica". Have fun with that. Or " Pithecanthropus Erectus". Or " Meditations On Integration". Or " Fables of Faubus". Or... 

Mingus has benefitted from writing a relatively few easily-enough played tunes to give the impression that his output is widely played, outside of "projects", which don't really count. 

That stuff takes work. Work, time, rehearsal, understanding, just an overall willingness and opportunity to did into it.

So much of the great jazz compositions do, and I mean real compositions, not simple song structures. That why these composers had their own bands, do they didn't have to depend on other people to play their music.

Look at Cal Massey if you want to see what happens with that. 

1 hour ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Instant Composers Pool & Clusone trio play or played a number of Herbie Nichols tunes. 

Simon Nabatov also released a CD of Nichols tunes on solo piano.

The "Herbie Nichols Project" recorded 3 CDs between 1996 and 2001.

But these (esp. the latter) may be in the realm of what Jim termed "projects".

[JSngry]

Yes, projects. There are no Nichols tunes that can be considered "common currency", meaning that you can not consistently get some random-but-qualified people together for a jam and call one of his tunes without having to produce a lead sheet for at least one of the participants. Not unless you prescreen your invitees.

I'd love to be wrong about this, btw.

And people who make records of other peoples music should start covering these pieces, because that's how it works. Projects don't really create currency, repetition does.

[relyles]

Anthony Braxton has also recorded albums dedicated mostly to Hill's music.

Edited August 22, 2022 by relyles

[Milestones]

Nothing wrong with "projects."  I'd say they often lead to complexity and depths.  Jams can be fun, but they tend to be basic; and they are certainly hit-or-miss.

 

 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Milestones said:

Nothing wrong with "projects."  I'd say they often lead to complexity and depths.  Jams can be fun, but they tend to be basic; and they are certainly hit-or-miss.

Yeas and no...historically, the music (usually) happened off the record first and then came to record.

For a few decades now, it's seemed to go the other way around. People make records (ones with what's left of "visibility", anyway) based on what they can get a record made of, not what they're really wanting to do with their own music. And REALLY lately it's been that the music goes to the record first, last, and only.

Why that is....many reasons. But whatever they are, it is a fundamental change in how the music is developing. COVID certainly is a big factor, but it was happening before then.

Why does nobody/"nobody" play Andrew Hill pieces? Because nobody plays Andrew Hill pieces. And when that changes, it will cease to be a question.

[bertrand]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Yes, projects. There are no Nichols tunes that can be considered "common currency", meaning that you can not consistently get some random-but-qualified people together for a jam and call one of his tunes without having to produce a lead sheet for at least one of the participants. Not unless you prescreen your invitees.

I'd love to be wrong about this, btw.

And people who make records of other peoples music should start covering these pieces, because that's how it works. Projects don't really create currency, repetition does.

Correct. Any one who wants to play Herbie Nichols music with others has to produce some sheet music. I doubt even Lady Sings The Blues/Serenade is one people can play off the top of their heads.

This is going down another rabbit hole, but there is a certain stigma attached to playing a whole program of music by a specific composer. It often gets dismissed as a tribute or gimmick, which is simple-minded. No one has such qualms in the classical realm. This was the concept I had when I started curating the Take 5 concert series at the Smithsonian American Art Museum in 2012. I encouraged artists to present entire programs of lesser-celebrated composers (Booker Little, Herbie Nichols, Grachan Moncur III, Cal Massey, Dewey Redman) but of course Shorter, Monk, Coltrane were in the mix also.

This began as a Take 5 concert, the video is from three days later:

Most guys got it and put together amazing programs. They really worked hard to explore music they were not always familiar with. A couple of guys grumbled and pulled out originals instead, something they could do on any other gig. If you are confident enough in your compositional skills...

A complete artist for me is one who can present both compelling originals and perform music in a respectful way by some of the great composers in jazz history. They do NOT have to try to sound just like the record.

Jim, please elaborate on your comment about Cal Massey.

Edited August 22, 2022 by bertrand

[JSngry]

Cal Massey left behind a really solid body of work, but only had one record under his own name. He had to depend others recording his work, and although he had some amazingly heavy hitters doing that.. they all had their own careers and music's to take care of.

Archie Shepp probably(?) was the most regular advocate, but... 

[JSngry]

Also .. jazz pedagogy in generally so locked into a chord/scale model, and neither Hill nor Nichols nor Monk fully yield up their charms when approached strictly from that angle. Nothing does, really, but that's another story 

But this is advanced music, definitely, A university environment has its own economic demands, so if the music of an Andrew Hill is not easily (if at all) squeezed into a standardized curriculum... and if the bulk of young musicians (quantity, not quality) are these days passing through the classroom, hey. Do the math.