Basie - Little Pony/NT Band Origins - What's The Real Story?

[JSngry]

Recorded on Columbia by a Basie big band in 1950, when there was no such thing?

Conventional wisdom has it that the NT band launched in 1952, but obviously Hefti was already engaged writing for the band. Hefti's Wiki page says something about Basie wanting to have a "stage band" that could do the Ed Sullivan show, but that is never mentioned in the conventional narratives, is it, that Basie was already getting a big band together for one-offs/projects as early as 1950? Or at least a book for one. 

Who was paying for all this 1950-51 activity to have a pump primed should a car pull up? 

Is there some solid documentation about all this so I can separate fact from mythology? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Big Beat Steve]

Acording to the reissue I have (on Vol. 6 of the French CBS Basie twofers in the Jazzotheque series) the big band session that included Little Pony happened on 10 April 1951. The previous (Octet) commercial recordings by the Basie band had taken place 16 May, 2 Nov. and 3 Nov. 1950.
To find out more, I leafed through the "Count Basie" bio by Alun Morgan published in the 80s (my quote is not verbatim because I have the French edition published by Garancière in 1986; the English orignal under the same title had been published by Spellmount in the UK in 1984), and lo and behold, I immediately came across this:

"In January, 1951, De Franco quit the sextet to form his own group and was replaced by Rudy Rutherford. Then, in April, Basie had an opportunity of getting a big band of 16 men together for a one-week engagement at the Apollo Theater. He lost no time in getting his new band into the Columbia studios to wax his first big band sides since August, 1949, including a splendid version of 'Little Pony'. Neal Hefti, who wrote arrangements for the sextet with Buddy De Franco, also contributed charts for the session that included heavyweights such as Al Porcino (tp) and Marshall Royal (as). Unfortunately the big band was unable to round up follow-up bookings and therefore Basie was forced to return to the "small band" formula."

Possible historical inaccuracies (that may have been pointed out elsewhere - who knows?) aside, this should provide the gist of an answer.
For the record (literally ...), the next recordings that Bruyninckx lists after the Columbia session of 10 April 1951 are an "All Stars" (septet) New York broadcast on 20 April 1951 issued on the Giants of jazz and Swing House labels, another septet session from a broadcast on 28 April 1951 released on Ozone and Moon (CD), and then there is a BIG BAND (16 men) boradcast from New York on 6 May 1951 that has remained largely unissued (as of the time of the Bruyninckx publication). Only 2 of the titles were issued on obscure collector labels.  Next came the Clef recordings by the big band on 17 Janury 1952.
So in April and May, 1951, there seems to have been to and fro between Basie small groups and a big band.

[JSngry]

Thanks!

1951, yes. My bad on that one.

So it does seem that Basie was already having eyes to relaunch the big band for at least a year before he actually did, and had was actually trying to get enough bookings to give it a go.

Interesting about the Apollo gig and the purported Ed Sullivan gig. Seems that demand and supply were already in negotiations. Billy Eckstine finally brought it home, right? 

 

[JSngry]

Does the Morgan book provide an account of how Gus Johnson got replaced by Sonny Payne? It appears there was some drama involved?

I do know that reading contemporaneous press accounts that it was a highly controversial move. Sonny Payne was not at all universally loved at the time.

[Big Beat Steve]

I will have to check later. But it is not a "fat" biography but rather one that was published as part of a series of books on various jazz stars. So certainly not comprehensive.

[Mark Stryker]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Does the Morgan book provide an account of how Gus Johnson got replaced by Sonny Payne? It appears there was some drama involved?

I do know that reading contemporaneous press accounts that it was a highly controversial move. Sonny Payne was not at all universally loved at the time.

In Stanley Dance's "The World of Count Basie," there i is a long interview with Gus Johnson. There doesn't seem to be any real drama or conflict. Johnson says he was with the band until December 22, 1954, but that the next day he was in the hospital with appendicitis. "I was there for 10 days or so when Basie wrote me to say that he had got Sonny Payne and that he was doing a good job. Basie like a lot of flash, and some of the fellows in the band thought sonny was better than me because he was more of a showman. Charlie Fowlkes told me later on that he (Charlie) fell and broke his kneecap, and Basie didn't hire him back either. The same thing to Marshall Royal when head to go into the hospital. Moral: Don't get sick!"

(Obviously, Fowlkes and Royal were eventually rehired.)

Johnson doesn't seem to have any hard feelings. He reports joining Lena Horne and making good money right after Basie, and then moving on to Ella.

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[Dan Gould]

Contemporaneous reporting may be found in DBs of the time:

https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-All-Music/Down-Beat.htm

 

[Mark Stryker]

Incidentally, Dance reports an October 1951 gig at the Savoy, opposite Jimmy Rushing's group, as the official start of the reorganized big band. Dance writes that "most of the arrangements were by Neal Hefti, Nat Pierce, and Buster Harding."

Re: the Pierce arrangements, in his interview in the book, Pierce says, "Basie told me he was going to start another big band in a little while, and he said he wanted me to write some arrangements. Charlie Mariano, Sonny Truitt, and I wrote some and gave them to him and never thought anything more about 'em. Soon after that, I went with Woody Herman's orchestra and towards the end of 1951, we heard that Basie had gotten his band together one more time ... When I went to hear them, they were playing my arrangements and I said, 'Oh, wow, that sounds great!'"

What is unclear to me from that statement is whether Mariano and Truitt contributed to Pierce's charts or whether they all wrote their own individual charts, but if it's the latter, did Basie ever play those by Mariano or Truitt?

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

6 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

In Stanley Dance's "The World of Count Basie," there i is a long interview with Gus Johnson. There doesn't seem to be any real drama or conflict. Johnson says he was with the band until December 22, 1954, but that the next day he was in the hospital with appendicitis. "I was there for 10 days or so when Basie wrote me to say that he had got Sonny Payne and that he was doing a good job. Basie like a lot of flash, and some of the fellows n the band thought sonny was better than me because he was more of a showman. Charlie Fowlkes told me later on that he (Charlie) fell and broke his kneecap, and Basie didn't hire him back either. The same thing to Marshall Royal when head to go into the hospital. Moral: Don't get sick!"

(Obviously, Fowlkes and Royal were eventually rehired.)

Johnson doesn't seem to have any hard feelings. He reports joining Lena Horne and making good money right after Basie, and then moving on to Ella.

 

In the Clef Mosaic notes, Chris Albertson quotes Gene Ramey as quitting the band because there was a move afoot to oust Johnson, who was having some unspecified issues with unspecified band members and that Ramey wasn't going to be a part of that. So maybe the appendicitis was a good way to do what was going to be done anyway?

Marshall Royal made "Don't get sick in the Basie band" a mini-theme in his autobiography!

12 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

Incidentally, Dance reports an October 1951 gig at the Savoy, opposite Jimmy Rushing's group, as the official start of the reorganized big band. Dance writes that "most of the arrangements were by Neal Hefti, Nat Pierce, and Buster Harding.

So that seals the deal that the relaunching of the big band was gestating in 1951 as well as being birthed the same year.

[Mark Stryker]

22 minutes ago, JSngry said:

In the Clef Mosaic notes, Chris Albertson quotes Gene Ramey as quitting the band because there was a move afoot to oust Johnson, who was having some unspecified issues with unspecified band members and that Ramey wasn't going to be a part of that. So maybe the appendicitis was a good way to do what was going to be done anyway?

Marshall Royal made "Don't get sick in the Basie band" a mini-theme in his autobiography!

FWIW, in Basie's autobiography "Good Morning Blues" (as told to Albert Murray),  he confirms Johnson's story and  doesn't mention any bad blood in the band -- doesn't mean there wasn't any of course, but it's not brought up.

Basie says:  "... the guy we brought in to pinch-hit for Gus was Sonny Payne, and he came in and hit a home run with the bases loaded. That was not any reflection on Gus at all. Absolutely not, because Gus, even up to this very minute, is still one of the great drummers. He's got a great sense of timing, and he can hold things together. Everybody speaks of him as being a great man for backing a band. He can set things behind a big band or any kind of band or any kind of group. It doesn't make any difference. He's a great drummer even if he's just playing by himself. He can do it from on and two on up. He's just an all-around great guy to have in your organization.

"But fate is funny thing. Sonny Payne came in there, and right away he touched off a new spark in that band, and we had to keep him as much as we loved Gus. Naturally, people noticed that Sonny was more of a showman than Gus was, but I wouldn't say that showmanship was what made the difference. It was not that easy. You can't see any stick twirling and trickerlating on those next records, but you can her and feel a difference in the band."

"

Edited August 18, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[Big Beat Steve]

58 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

In Stanley Dance's "The World of Count Basie," there i is a long interview with Gus Johnson. There doesn't seem to be any real drama or conflict. Johnson says he was with the band until December 22, 1954, but that the next day he was in the hospital with appendicitis. "I was there for 10 days or so when Basie wrote me to say that he had got Sonny Payne and that he was doing a good job. Basie like a lot of flash, and some of the fellows n the band thought sonny was better than me because he was more of a showman. Charlie Fowlkes told me later on that he (Charlie) fell and broke his kneecap, and Basie didn't hire him back either. The same thing to Marshall Royal when head to go into the hospital. Moral: Don't get sick!"

 

That's about what Alun Morgan said in the Basie bio mentioned earlier too, referring to Stanley Dance as his source. He also hinted at Basie being a penny pincher when it came to salaries and granting a raise and not being as close to his sidemen as he was later on. So maybe money was a factor in the changes of personnel too?

Edited August 18, 2022 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

It does seem, though, that Sonny Payne was waiting in the wings, so to speak...and the Gene Ramey quote that Chris Albertson used certainly seems to indicate that there was at least some contingent of the band wanting to rid of Johnson. He also notes that Basie begged Ramey to stay, but that Ramey was firm in his decision.

There's always factions in bands, even small ones, and the leader has to navigate them. Even in small groups. Zawinul talks about how him and Walter Booker were always advocating (and bitching about it after the gig) for even more open material against Nat's desire for more commercial stuff. So Cannonball seems to have split the difference.

I love Stanley Dance, but I'd be blind if I didn't note that he also seemed to be moved by the desire to create and sustain narratives. And really, if this was a case of a faction in the band wanting to oust Johnson (and get Payne in?), well that's a family matter, not for the general public to hear about. And Johnson's story might well reflect the same spirit, especially decades later.

Also...there was a faction of people (mostly musicians, but also fans) who really disliked Sonny Payne. I remember somebody, a musician (whose name I don't remember) being quaoted to the effect that Basie went all to hell when they threw out the Buster Harding charts and got rid of Gus Johnson. Other reviews were really scournful of Payne, one of them going so far as to lament that it's hard to believe that this new loud and tasteless drummer guy was related to one of the great swinging drummers of all time.

Seems to have been a bit of a controversy, which is funny now, because Sonny Payne became the template for every Basie drummer to come.

[Larry Kart]

2 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

In Stanley Dance's "The World of Count Basie," there i is a long interview with Gus Johnson. There doesn't seem to be any real drama or conflict. Johnson says he was with the band until December 22, 1954, but that the next day he was in the hospital with appendicitis. "I was there for 10 days or so when Basie wrote me to say that he had got Sonny Payne and that he was doing a good job. Basie like a lot of flash, and some of the fellows in the band thought sonny was better than me because he was more of a showman. Charlie Fowlkes told me later on that he (Charlie) fell and broke his kneecap, and Basie didn't hire him back either. The same thing to Marshall Royal when head to go into the hospital. Moral: Don't get sick!"

(Obviously, Fowlkes and Royal were eventually rehired.)

Johnson doesn't seem to have any hard feelings. He reports joining Lena Horne and making good money right after Basie, and then moving on to Ella.

 

More than once in DB record reviews of the time Nat Hentoff referred to the long stick with which Freddie Green would poke Sonny Payne when Payne rushed.

[Peter Friedman]

A highly interesting thread. Not being home with all my jazz books, etc. makes it hard for me to check any sources to contribute to this topic.

[JSngry]

Tell you how un-clued into this period I was...I opened up the Clef Mosaic and started looking for Little Pony/Wardell. I had always just assumed that that was New Testament Basie, and as such was going to be in there.

DOH!!!

[Mark Stryker]

Having always been aware of generally of a Sonny Payne backlash but having never looked closely at the roots of it, I always assumed that the folks who didn't like Payne were reacting to how much he differed from Papa Jo, not from Gus Johnson. And that this was actually part of the broader dialogue around the New Testament Basie Band, which  some critics and others thought was an unfortunate turn away from the aesthetics of the Old Testament band. Am I wrong about this?

[JSngry]

Not wrong at all, only that there was apparently a very real-time feeling to it that carried over well into the 80s, maybe even longer than that. And there were grumblings about hey, you got rid of Gus Johnson for THIS????? I think a lot of it has to do with the puritanical patriarchal impulses of so many jazz writers and fans of the time (not that it's all that much better now...), you know, this is OUR Basie, WE know what's Best and True about this music, how dare it be defiled!

The Old Testament band...hard for me to say how much of the ongoing adulation/idolotry of it was genuine admiration and awe, and how much of it was/is just fetishism. There's an air of militantism to some of it that raises some suspicion on my part, but otoh, yeah, those guys were the shit and kept going at it until the very end.

But oth...my first live jazz was Basie in 1970, with Lockjaw in the band (oh, to have a time machine to go back to be able to hear that again with what I know now....), and to say they made an indelible impression is putting it mildly.

They're both great entities, imo. And if we could get a full accounting of the Columbia and RCA OT bands, we'd likely here that the change was both inevitable and necessary.

And now that there's enough room to separate fact from emotion (or should be...), hey, this has that Basie thing that I love form ANY era:

 

[Mark Stryker]

"And if we could get a full accounting of the Columbia and RCA OT bands, we'd likely here that the change was both inevitable and necessary."

Inevitable and necessary -- and likely more gradual than people generally think. Not that is was a straight line the Old Testament and the New Testament. I mean, hey ...

JImmy Mundy, I think ... 

 

Edited August 18, 2022 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

Yeah, the one RCA compilation I got opened my ears to that. I was like, WTF, this is NOT OT, this is NT!!!! Only it wasn't.

Again, narrative becoming convention wisdom, or vice-versa. And to what end? To steer the consumer's spending? To accrue power over same? Ego-trippin' out? Or jsut general myopia?

I just don't know. But no wonder we accept the concept of evolution better than we know it as we see it.

[BillF]

2 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

A highly interesting thread. Not being home with all my jazz books, etc. makes it hard for me to check any sources to contribute to this topic.

Yes, Peter, very interesting thread. I remember reading Alun Morgan's book on Basie but after this passage of time recall little other than his alleged tightness with money.

I twice saw the Basie band with Sonny Payne. Certainly the showman drummer. He threw the sticks in the air several times and once missed them on the way down. 

[JSngry]

No fault found here!

 

(and yes, that is Sal Nistico on 2nd tenor)

[John Tapscott]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

Seems to have been a bit of a controversy, which is funny now, because Sonny Payne became the template for every Basie drummer to come.

Many of them, but not all. Harold Jones was a tasty drummer. Gregg Field was a relatively quiet Basie drummer who didn't really call attention to himself, but swung the band very well.  Same with Dennis Mackrel.  I prefer them all to Sonny Payne. 

I liked Butch Miles with Basie for the most part too. Duffy Jackson, rest his soul, was over the top. Miles and Duffy were more in the Payne model. There's a couple others I'm forgetting. One was the the guy who played with Maynard and later Ellington and Basie in-between for a bit.   Oh, Rufus Jones, that's him. Not very familiar with his Basie work. Oh, and Louis Bellson who did his own thing with the band. Liked his work on those Basie Roulette recordings from Sweden. (4 CD's worth on the Mosaic Roulette Live set!)  

[John L]

There is a Birdland broadcast shortly after the Little Pony session in April, 1951.  Basie is still using an octet.   Perhaps Hefti just filled out the octet for that one session.   The big band that next recorded in February, 1952 for Clef had completely different reed players except for Marshal Royal and Charlie Fowlkes.  

[JSngry]

57 minutes ago, John Tapscott said:

Many of them, but not all. Harold Jones was a tasty drummer. Gregg Field was a relatively quiet Basie drummer who didn't really call attention to himself, but swung the band very well.  Same with Dennis Mackrel.  I prefer them all to Sonny Payne. 

I liked Butch Miles with Basie for the most part too. Duffy Jackson, rest his soul, was over the top. Miles and Duffy were more in the Payne model. There's a couple others I'm forgetting. One was the the guy who played with Maynard and later Ellington and Basie in-between for a bit.   Oh, Rufus Jones, that's him. Not very familiar with his Basie work. Oh, and Louis Bellson who did his own thing with the band. Liked his work on those Basie Roulette recordings from Sweden. (4 CD's worth on the Mosaic Roulette Live set!)  

By template, I just mean that the paradigm was drive the band, play the dynamics, and never miss a hit by even a microbeat. No more riding in the pocket and kicking some of the time. Nope. all of the time.

As you rightly note, there's a lot of different ways to do that.

Only recently paying attention to Greg Field. Shocked to read his CV, a real Hollywood studio figure. Coulda fooled me, so very tasty.

Dennis Mackrel, I get a chuckle out of that, just because when I saw him on Carla Bley Big Band records, I was like, wait, isn't this the guy who played with Basie back in the day? And he is!

So maybe Carla wasn't totally joking when she said that her goal at the time was to be Ernie Wilkins!

[Mark Stryker]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

By template, I just mean that the paradigm was drive the band, play the dynamics, and never miss a hit by even a microbeat. No more riding in the pocket and kicking some of the time. Nope. all of the time.

 

Just as an aside, since I'm writing about Sam Woodyard at the moment -- Woodyard's tenure with Ellington almost exactly parallels Payne's years with Basie Completely different style in that Woodyard, who like Sonny Greer, was fantastic colorist, expressly did NOT set up the band figures and make every hit like Payne did. Each cat was perfect for the band in which they played. 

And speaking of Payne, dig the windmills he starts throwing at his cymbal on 2 and 4 at the 2:22 mark with Sinatra. 

 

Edited August 19, 2022 by Mark Stryker