Woody Herman in the LP era

[Teasing the Korean]

9 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I think the only Woody Herman I have is a UK album on HMV called Songs for Hip Lovers.  I assume this was on Verve in the US, given Norman Granz's involvement.  It is arranged and conducted by Marty Paich, whose writing is hit or miss for me.  I got it primarily for the cover art, which is hopefully posted in the Album Covers with Moderne Furniture thread.

EDIT:  I see that the UK album is a different photo shoot based on the US album.  Different models, different chairs.  I like the UK better.  

Oh, no, this is a vocal album!  And the vocalist is...Woody Herman!

[Gheorghe]

I have only this one. Great guest artists. 

This was recorded shortly after I saw the same band (without the guest stars) at Velden Jazzfestival in July 1979. I have not heard so many big bands in my live. I think one year before I had heard Thad Jones-Mel Lewis and that was about all. Or a bit later a star studded Dizzy Gillespie Big Band, that´s sure. 

I remember the Woody Herman Herd of 1979 was the last band at the last evening of the festival. I was not so much into that older big band stuff then or now, but it did swing and they also included some Chick Corea tunes in their program which astonished me since this was a quite very old man on the band stand. He had great soloists, I think Nick Brignola was on bari. Well, I had to get a bit accomodated to the quite corny sounding clarinet of Woody himself. But yeah, it was a good festival finale anyway. 

[JSngry]

 

[Mark Stryker]

Some folks have mentioned Nick Brignola in conjunction with Woody, but there may be some confusion. Nick Brignola did play baritone sax with Woody in the early '60s. I don't know how long he was on the band. However,  a MIKE Brignola was on Woody's band for a much longer tenure in the 1980s. If you saw Woody in those years, it was Mike not Nick you heard. I don't believe the two bari-playing Brignolas were related. 

[JSngry]

Mike did the hiring for the band. 

[jazzcorner]

These 2  shouldnt be missed in the collections

 

[Big Beat Steve]

The first one of these two is a compilation reissue of the Second Herd on Capitol (1948-50). Basically it is a reissue of the Woody Herman volume in the early 50s Capitol "Classics in Jazz" series, with the contents expanded from 8 to 12 tracks (Music to Dance to, Not Really the Blues, That's Right, and Lollypop were added). All these 12 tracks (+ The Nearness of You and The Great Lie) also are on (Japanese) Capitol ECJ-40012, and all 12 (plus The Great Lie) also are on the "Early Autumn" LP (Capitol Jazz Classics Vol. 9) that BillF showed in July and that is most frequently available as the Dutch pressing in our regions but also came as a US pressing.
So these "Capitol Greatest Hits" have been around in various guises.

As the for the "Hey! Heard the Herd?" LP - this at first sight this looks interesting ... But the track listing made me wonder ... And a check in the discography confirmed my hunch: These are reissues of recordings by the Herman band done for Woody's short-lived MARS label in the earlier 50s. Mars then came under control of MGM, as did Verve somewhat later. And then MGM slyly recycled these Mars recordings on its Verve "subsidiary" - with cover artwork that, seen at a glance, seemed to fit in with the contemporary NEW recordings by the early 60s Herman band on Philips.
These Mars records are a headache for vinylists. Their reissues have been scattered in all directions through the years so you end up with tons of duplicates but still don't have all of them (if you - very likely - cannot find the Mars originals). So at any rate anyone considering this Verve LP should check first what he has on other LPs covering the Mars period.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[jazzcorner]

On 10/30/2023 at 2:46 PM, Big Beat Steve said:

The first one of these two is a compilation reissue of the Second Herd on Capitol (1948-50). Basically it is a reissue of the Woody Herman volume in the early 50s Capitol "Classics in Jazz" series, with the contents expanded from 8 to 12 tracks (Music to Dance to, Not Really the Blues, That's Right, and Lollypop were added). All these 12 tracks (+ The Nearness of You and The Great Lie) also are on (Japanese) Capitol ECJ-40012, and all 12 (plus The Great Lie) also are on the "Early Autumn" LP (Capitol Jazz Classics Vol. 9) that BillF showed in July and that is most frequently available as the Dutch pressing in our regions but also came as a US pressing.
So these "Capitol Greatest Hits" have been around in various guises.

As the for the "Hey! Heard the Herd?" LP - this at first sight this looks interesting ... But the track listing made me wonder ... And a check in the discography confirmed my hunch: These are reissues of recordings by the Herman band done for Woody's short-lived MARS label in the earlier 50s. Mars then came under control of MGM, as did Verve somewhat later. And then MGM slyly recycled these Mars recordings on its Verve "subsidiary" - with cover artwork that, seen at a glance, seemed to fit in with the contemporary NEW recordings by the early 60s Herman band on Philips.
These Mars records are a headache for vinylists. Their reissues have been scattered in all directions through the years so you end up with tons of duplicates but still don't have all of them (if you - very likely - cannot find the Mars originals). So at any rate anyone considering this Verve LP should check first what he has on other LPs covering the Mars period.

Can recommend this Mosaic box:

 

[Big Beat Steve]

No doubt that's a useful recommendation for those who do not have much at all from those (split) periods (and do want ALL the vocals too ).
But for those (like me, admittedly) who have a pretty fair chunk (and are no obsessive "upgraders-by-way-of-Mosaic" ) it is over the top and inefficient moneywise. What also turned me off from being a completist (though I still regret the fairly silly programming of previous Mars-label reissues that kept re-recycling mostly the same tunes) is that I'm inclined to find it to be true (from the few tunes I've heard) what Russ Chase wrote in his liner notes to the Giants of Jazz (GOJ-1022) LP of "Woody Herman Live in New Orleans" (Oct./Nov. 1951), i.e. the MGM sides being "not as exciting" as previous and later recordings.
I can see why the programming of that Mosaic box happened the way it did (sidestepping the Columbias and Capitols) but it does reek a little of "and then there also were ..." and if you already own a certain percentage of the contents you tend to think twice.
 

[Gheorghe]

Just a thought: 

As the title of the topic is "Woody in the LP Era". Did he really live long enough to get much involved in the CD Era ? I think the last time I saw him on stage (strangly enough not with the Herd, but with an all star combo of I think 8 players, among them Buddy Tate, Scott Hamilton, Al Cohn, Jimmy Bunch I think was on piano......, Woody played a lotta fine clarinet), and I think this was at the very end of his career. I´m not sure if I saw many CD´s then, it might have been around 1985/86......., at least the later Woody Herman albums I had purchased all was LPs.........

[Big Beat Steve]

I do think the thread starter meant to say he would like to focus on recordings FIRST released in the LP era (i.e. roughly post-1949). I.e. NOT on "The Band That Plays The Blues" nor the First Herd and a good part of the Second Herd (whose original releases predated the vinyl era and therefore were on 78).

Edited December 1, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Rabshakeh]

That's right. I just meant not a recent box set or double CD compilations, really. I like to listen to The Musical Event, as it appeared at the time, whether that is an original LP or a classic comp that made a splash in the LP era. 

[Gheorghe]

Anyway, though his kind of jazz may not be my very first choice, I always enjoyed to see him live. Sure, this was the later period of the 70´s and 80´s , but the band sounded modern, they played then modern tunes like a lot of Chick Corea. Even the last time when he didn´t have much left to live and had a mainstream combo, he was astonishing strong on clarinet, even if the clarinet is not my very favourite instrument. But he had it, and he even sang a song, really nice. 

[Big Beat Steve]

Kudos to Woody Herman to the way he hung on. To be brutally honest, in a way poor Woody lived a life of sorrow in his later years. His former manager had mismanaged his business side and badly screwed up Woody's tax statements which left Woody with really huge tax debts that forced him to carry on working and touring to the end. Beyond what the historians have written about this sad side of his final years more than once, I remember a few hints to this effect by a former employer of mine (quite a character and a big jazz fan since back in the early 50s who became close to several touring jazz celebrities) who had sort of befriended Woody Herman and from time to time hosted him at his home during German tours of the orchestra. After Woody had passed in 1987 my boss (in those few talks touching on our common musical interests) could not help heaving a few heartfelt sighs of relief that "now Woody had finally found his well-earned rest."

[sidewinder]

I remember reading in Time magazine in the mid 80s an article which interviewed Woody about his tax disaster. A sad story.

Edited December 2, 2023 by sidewinder

[Gheorghe]

Yes, those last years were really sad, there was also a long interview that German writer Gudrun Endress made with Woody Herman for Jazz Podium. 

But he was really a showman. On stage he gave it all and always smiled to his audience. 

[sidewinder]

Even backstage Woody still had a broad smile on his face - which I think was genuine. Can picture it now over 45 years hence !

[RiRiIII]

On 7/12/2022 at 7:12 PM, BillF said:

Speaking of the LP era, this is what I was listening to in 1959 at the age of 19.

I borrowed it from the (surprisingly progressive for the times) Leeds Public Libraries.

It's so good I'm still listening to it, but now I'm streaming it. 

Time and technology march on! 

In a review of a reissue of this LP, the following is mentioned: "Incidentally, the booklet details have goofed in claiming ‘Early Autumn’ as the 1947 one originally called ‘Summer Sequence Pt. IV’ with Getz – surprising too, since they reprint Woody's lengthy notes that devote a whole paragraph to explaining this was a 1954 version with Bill Perkins. "

I could not find a readable scan of the back sleeve notes though.

So, this 1954 recording of Early Autumn featuring Bill Perkins appeared first time in this LP?

Thank you.

 

 

 

Edited November 2 by RiRiIII

[Big Beat Steve]

On 11/2/2024 at 7:17 AM, RiRiIII said:

In a review of a reissue of this LP, the following is mentioned: "Incidentally, the booklet details have goofed in claiming ‘Early Autumn’ as the 1947 one originally called ‘Summer Sequence Pt. IV’ with Getz – surprising too, since they reprint Woody's lengthy notes that devote a whole paragraph to explaining this was a 1954 version with Bill Perkins. "

I could not find a readable scan of the back sleeve notes though.

So, this 1954 recording of Early Autumn featuring Bill Perkins appeared first time in this LP?

Thank you.

There seems to have been a mixup in several ways.
I don't own the LP (Columbia CL592) but 1 or 2 years ago I picked up a CD reissue (PWR 27275 , which more than doubles the LP contents with bonus tracks from the 1945-47 period) at a local clearout sale for the affordable sum of 1 EUR.

It seems like the CD reissue reviewed under your link is a different and more recent one (on Columbia Legacy, which according to Discogs only includes the original 12 tracks). So I cannot be definite about what that booklet actually says. 
At any rate, the booklet of mine includes a bio of Woody Herman by Arthur Morton, the original DB 5-star review by Nat Hentoff and the actual liner notes by Woody Herman ( I trust they are complete and unabridged). Below is a scan of the paragraph dealing with "Early Autumn". But Woody Herman refers to this tune only as by his "current band" (which might just as much mean "approximately 1954").

The "Early Autumn" version included on the CD as indicated as coming from the Columbia LP  features a lengthy vocal (which sounds like Woody Herman's) so it clearly is not the 1948 original. Besides, the original was on Capitol. Would Columbia have used Capitol recordings for such an LP?

Checking the discographies, both Jepsen and Bruyninckx confirm that a version of "Early Autumn" recorded on 13 to 15 July 1954 was released on Columbia CL592. According to these discographies, the tracks recorded that day and and released later (partially on Clef/Verve but also on collector label Swing World SWS-4) come from a broadcast from Omaha, Nebraska. The track on the CD does not sound like a live recording but that may be deceptive.
However, I also happen to have that Swing World SWS-4 LP. Fidelity, announcer comments and (moderate) crowd noise clearly make this a live recording. And this LP features "Early Autumn" as well, but it is all-instrumental.
What is also puzzling is that the session details of my CD contents claim that "Early Autumn" was recorded in New York on 30 May 1952. This date coresponds to a session for the Mars label and the band lineup included Bill Perkins on that day too. But according to both discographies no "Early Autumn" was waxed that day. So where (and why) did they get that date?

The LP on Swing World did not exist yet at the time Jepsen's discography was published, but Bruyninckx apparently did miss that two different Early Autumns seem to exist under that date. He indicates "Early Autmn" as being present both on Columbia CL592 and on Swing World. But according to my CD these clearly are not the same recordings.

So ... which is which, really?
What does the Tom Lord discography say? Recopied the Bruyninckx slipup or new enlightenments?

 

[RiRiIII]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

There seems to have been a mixup in several ways.
I don't own the LP (Columbia CL592) but 1 or 2 years ago I picked up a CD reissue (PWR 27275 , which more than doubles the LP contents with bonus tracks from the 1945-47 period) at a local clearout sale for the affordable sum of 1 EUR.

It seems like the CD reissue reviewed under your link is a different and more recent one (on Columbia Legacy, which according to Discogs only includes the original 12 tracks). So I cannot be definite about what that booklet actually says. 
At any rate, the booklet of mine includes a bio of Woody Herman by Arthur Morton, the original DB 5-star review by Nat Hentoff and the actual liner notes by Woody Herman ( I trust they are complete and unabridged). Below is a scan of the paragraph dealing with "Early Autumn". But Woody Herman refers to this tune only as by his "current band" (which might just as much mean "approximately 1954").

The "Early Autumn" version included on the CD as indicated as coming from the Columbia LP  features a lengthy vocal (which sounds like Woody Herman's) so it clearly is not the 1948 original. Besides, the original was on Capitol. Would Columbia have used Capitol recordings for such an LP?

Checking the discographies, both Jepsen and Bruyninckx confirm that a version of "Early Autumn" recorded on 13 to 15 July 1954 was released on Columbia CL592. According to these discographies, the tracks recorded that day and and released later (partially on Clef/Verve but also on collector label Swing World SWS-4) come from a broadcast from Omaha, Nebraska. The track on the CD does not sound like a live recording but that may be deceptive.
However, I also happen to have that Swing World SWS-4 LP. Fidelity, announcer comments and (moderate) crowd noise clearly make this a live recording. And this LP features "Early Autumn" as well, but it is all-instrumental.
What is also puzzling is that the session details of my CD contents claim that "Early Autumn" was recorded in New York on 30 May 1952. This date coresponds to a session for the Mars label and the band lineup included Bill Perkins on that day too. But according to both discographies no "Early Autumn" was waxed that day. So where (and why) did they get that date?

The LP on Swing World did not exist yet at the time Jepsen's discography was published, but Bruyninckx apparently did miss that two different Early Autumns seem to exist under that date. He indicates "Early Autmn" as being present both on Columbia CL592 and on Swing World. But according to my CD these clearly are not the same recordings.

So ... which is which, really?
What does the Tom Lord discography say? Recopied the Bruyninckx slipup or new enlightenments?

 

Thank you very much for the elaborated reply!

Since the CD has the version with vocals by Herman, and this version was recorded for MARS acc. to the respective MOSAIC set booklet, on July 7, 1952 and Bill Perkins plays therein acc. to the MOSAIC booklet, it may be that the CD has the recording date wrong. Is the timing the same as is at the Mosaic set, i.e. 2:54?

Personnel of the MARS date: WOODY HERMAN and THE NEW THIRD HERD: Don Fagerquist, John Howell, Roy Caton, Lee Fortier(tp), Carl Fontana, Urbie Green, Jack Green (tb), Woody Herman (cl, as, vcl), Arno Marsh, Dick Hafer, Bill Perkins (ts), Sam Staff (fl, bari), Nat Pierce (p, celeste, arr), Chubby Jackson (b), Sonny Igoe (d), Dolly Houston (vcl), Ralph Burns (arr).

 

These are the data I get from the three Woody Herman boxes released by MOSAIC, in regard to Early Autumn aka Summer Sequence PT 4:

1. SUMMER SEQUENCE PT 4 - COLUMBIA, December 28, 1947 - master 3:04, take 2 3:07, take 3 3:30 [no vocals, Stan Getz, ts]

2. EARLY AUTUMN - Capitol on December 30, 1948 in Los Angeles, California - 3:14 [no vocals, Stan Getz, ts]

3. EARLY AUTUMN MARS Verve MGV 2030 - NYC, July 7, 1952 - 2:54, [Bill Perkins, ts WOODY HERMAN on vocals]

Edited November 3 by RiRiIII

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks for that info!
You are right - the error must indeed be in the recording date of "Early Autumn" indicated on my CD. The date of 7 July 1952 (already indicated correctly in Jepsen's discography, BTW) must be the correct one.
The timing is 2:54 indeed (indicated as 2:55 in the booklet but that one second may be a matter of timinig of the fadeout anyway).

So the "Early Autumn" recording by the "current band" (as per the original liner notes by Woody Herman) means "current as of 1952". But definitely not "1954", as alluded to in that reivew.

I just checked my other Woody Herman LPs and see I also have Discovery DS-845 (which features part of the studio recordings from the Mars period). But the liner notes indicate 30 May 1952 as the recording date of "Early Autumn" (though the lineup they provide is the one of 7 July 1954, with Lee Fortier replacing Jack Scarda). So maybe this is how the error found its way into the booklet of my CD on the "Poll Winners Records" (PWR) label?

One thing remains puzzling, though:
The review under the link you provided gives a time span of 26 Feb. 1945 to 15 July 1954 for the contents of the CD and LP. The date of 15 July 1954 corresponds to the Omaha broadcast mentioned above. However, neither Early Autumn nor any of the other of the 12 original tracks come from that broadcast and date. The most recent one on the original LP contents is from 21 May 1954, according to the booklet of my CD.
So how did that date of the Omaha broadcasts find its way into the review (by Brian Priestley, no less ...)?? Did Columbia use the recording date indicated incorrectly (for an "Early Autumn" version allegedly released on the original Columbia CL592 LP) in the Jepsen and Bruyninckx (and other?) discographies for the CD reissue? And Priestley didn't notice??

Edited November 3 by Big Beat Steve