Vinyl issues

[Pim]

I’m a little active on the Steve Hoffman forums and there’s one thing that keeps amazing me: it’s the amount of issues people are reporting with new vinyl. And I am not talking bout European PD labels but the Blue Note Classics Vinyl Series, the Tone Poet series and the Verve Acoustic Sound Series. All pretty expensive analogue series pressed by quality plants. 
 

Non-Fill, warping, off-centered and the obvious ticks and pops: it rains complaints about them. Some people have returned one lp 3 or 4 times…. The thing is: I never had a single issue with them. I always wash them upon arrival and that’s it. In general I haven’t got many issues with vinyl either and if so then it’s mostly the cover that is damaged (Amazon once shipped an LP in a paper bag, really guys?). 
 

Question is; are these guys making a lot of fuzz for nothing or am I not critical enough?

[porcy62]

I think I returned less then 10 records in the last forty five years, guess I am less critical then you

[Brad]

52 minutes ago, Pim said:

I’m a little active on the Steve Hoffman forums and there’s one thing that keeps amazing me: it’s the amount of issues people are reporting with new vinyl. And I am not talking bout European PD labels but the Blue Note Classics Vinyl Series, the Tone Poet series and the Verve Acoustic Sound Series. All pretty expensive analogue series pressed by quality plants. 
 

Non-Fill, warping, off-centered and the obvious ticks and pops: it rains complaints about them. Some people have returned one lp 3 or 4 times…. The thing is: I never had a single issue with them. I always wash them upon arrival and that’s it. In general I haven’t got many issues with vinyl either and if so then it’s mostly the cover that is damaged (Amazon once shipped an LP in a paper bag, really guys?). 
 

Question is; are these guys making a lot of fuzz for nothing or am I not critical enough?

I’m also active on SH and have read these posts. I think people are being particular in some cases. In other cases, such as the Kind of Blue UHQR, they are not. Generally, I have hold off in purchasing these Classics, one because I don’t want to duplicate what I have in cd but also due to quality complaints. A couple of months ago I purchased the Nichols and, mistakenly, only listened to it yesterday. It has a few pops and some distortion. Not the end of the world, just slightly annoying. 

[jcam_44]

The only music I've had to return in the last 10 years is the Super Deluxe of Sign O The Times. And that is the CD version. I'm not super picky though. I get the concept of the record should be new but I have to wash them anyway due to paper/static when I get them anyway. The Miles Davis UHQR issues sound legit, and kept me from buying it. Especially given the cost of it. 

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, Pim said:

Question is; are these guys making a lot of fuzz for nothing or am I not critical enough?

Pim - I don't think you're being insufficiently critical.  Not at all.  

My take: Many (most?) audiophiles have a reputation for expecting perfection -- or at least near-perfection.   That's why they're so often disappointed. 

From where I'm sitting, it usually looks like a "losing the forest for the trees" sort of thing.  

Not always.  But often.

 

That's why if someone asks me, "Are you an audiophile?" I say "No."   

[JSngry]

Buy vinyl, expect vinyl. And don't be surprised when you get it.

[Pim]

1 hour ago, porcy62 said:

I think I returned less then 10 records in the last forty five years, guess I am less critical then you

I think you’ve got me wrong. I don’t return a lot of records as well. 

[clifford_thornton]

last one I remember returning was the Rollins in Holland, which had one incorrect LP as well as another LP that was scratched and played with surface noise. They were cool about replacing it. 

I do buy new release records; both at the high and the low end there are problems with manufacturing. As long as the issues are merely cosmetic I don't care, but if it affects the sound to a notable degree that becomes a problem.

[Brad]

30 minutes ago, Pim said:

I think you’ve got me wrong. I don’t return a lot of records as well. 

I think I’ve returned one and the replacement was worse than the first one so I kept it. 

[Pim]

3 hours ago, HutchFan said:

My take: Many (most?) audiophiles have a reputation for expecting perfection -- or at least near-perfection.   That's why they're so often disappointed. 

From where I'm sitting, it usually looks like a "losing the forest for the trees" sort of thing.     

Yeah I am probably no audiophile either then. Of course audio quality matters and I really enjoy the HQ analogue series from last years but I haven’t had to return one. I’ve got 12 LP’s from the Blue Note Classic Series and had never an issue with them. But there are people on the Hoffman forums that return every reissue 2,3 or even 4 times. That’s a big difference and I could imagine I would return an LP if it sounds bad. But…. in my ears they sound great! That is after washing them one time, I must say. 

I’ve returned 2 LP’s for the sleeves were damaged. I just recently returned an LP for the vinyl itself for the first time. A Monk LP which came sealed but with a huge scratch. Part from that….

I tried to mention in a polite way one time that people might be overcritical but the did not like me saying that…. So I decided to just keep my mouth shut and enjoy my music with my probably bad ears.

3 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

last one I remember returning was the Rollins in Holland, which had one incorrect LP as well as another LP that was scratched and played with surface noise. They were cool about replacing it. 

I do buy new release records; both at the high and the low end there are problems with manufacturing. As long as the issues are merely cosmetic I don't care, but if it affects the sound to a notable degree that becomes a problem.

What do you mean with cosmetic Clifford? You mean it doesn’t bother you if the sleeve is damaged? Because I have to say: that is something that does matter to me. 

[HutchFan]

2 minutes ago, Pim said:

I tried to mention in a polite way one time that people might be overcritical but the did not like me saying that…. So I decided to just keep my mouth shut and enjoy my music with my probably bad ears.

I still don't think your ears are bad.  Don't forget that SUPER HIGH-END equipment can reveal every single flaw in the recording process.  As far as I'm concerned, the latter is a good reason not to invest in a system like that!  

Of course, like you say, audio quality matters.  But, at some point, a line gets crossed and things get silly.  (I suppose each person has to decide where that line is for themselves.)

I'd rather get my system set up and then forget about it -- so I can focus on the music.

 

[paulfromcamden]

4 hours ago, HutchFan said:

Pim - I don't think you're being insufficiently critical.  Not at all.  

My take: Many (most?) audiophiles have a reputation for expecting perfection -- or at least near-perfection.   That's why they're so often disappointed. 

From where I'm sitting, it usually looks like a "losing the forest for the trees" sort of thing.  

Not always.  But often.

 

That's why if someone asks me, "Are you an audiophile?" I say "No."   

I think there's a lot of truth in this. But it also doesn't help that a lot of these releases are hyped as being audio nirvana and come with a hefty price tag to match. You can't really blame folk for expecting a properly manufactured LP when they're being charged £35.

I've not had too many problems. My BN Classics Idle Moments arrived scuffed and has surface noise. It's not super intrusive so didn't bother to return it.

I have so many beat up old 50s/60s pressings that I have a reasonably high tolerance for surface noise and clicks anyhow 

 

[Dub Modal]

57 minutes ago, Pim said:

Yeah I am probably no audiophile either then. Of course audio quality matters and I really enjoy the HQ analogue series from last years but I haven’t had to return one. I’ve got 12 LP’s from the Blue Note Classic Series and had never an issue with them. But there are people on the Hoffman forums that return every reissue 2,3 or even 4 times. That’s a big difference and I could imagine I would return an LP if it sounds bad. But…. in my ears they sound great! That is after washing them one time, I must say. 

I’ve returned 2 LP’s for the sleeves were damaged. I just recently returned an LP for the vinyl itself for the first time. A Monk LP which came sealed but with a huge scratch. Part from that….

I tried to mention in a polite way one time that people might be overcritical but the did not like me saying that…. So I decided to just keep my mouth shut and enjoy my music with my probably bad ears.

I wouldn't worry about it man, and don't be so hard on your ears. Most reviewers there and elsewhere wouldn't be able to pick out pressing/media/artist or even song in a blind test. You really don't have to spend thousands of dollars to enjoy a piece of media that cost less than $100 (or even less than $25). 

[JSngry]

31 minutes ago, paulfromcamden said:

I have so many beat up old 50s/60s pressings that I have a reasonably high tolerance for surface noise and clicks anyhow 

There ya' go.

Add 70s & 80s pressings, and you've got me. Plus, especially in the 70s when records were routinely shared, carried to parties, and were otherwise a form of community property, the noise and clicks occurred on my watch. So I'm not gonna worry about too much of it.

But - that's what happens with vinyl, and if you buy a new record to play socially, it's going to happen to your new records too. Gauge your expenditure accordingly.

[mjazzg]

I buy my fair share of LPs and have done for quite a while. The only new ones I remember returning were a couple of Sun Ras that were fantastically warped (as I type that sentence it seems oddly apt).  A recent purchase had some background noise which was a bit intrusive but when I contacted the seller/artist he admitted the run had the problem so there didn't seem much point in getting another copy. Other than that all good, generally.

Now mis-graded used LPs is a different matter. I've returned lots of those.

[clifford_thornton]

2 hours ago, Pim said:

 

What do you mean with cosmetic Clifford? You mean it doesn’t bother you if the sleeve is damaged? Because I have to say: that is something that does matter to me. 

no, cosmetic marks to the vinyl that don't affect play. That doesn't worry me too much. Sleeve damage sucks however.

[porcy62]

7 hours ago, Pim said:

I think you’ve got me wrong. I don’t return a lot of records as well. 

I was sarcastic sorry if I didn’t get the tone

[Ken Dryden]

I haven't seen anything in the Blue Note Tone Poet LPs series that is of interest that I don't already own on CD or earlier LPs. 

I have had problems with various new pressings from labels like Newvelle and Storyville, with LPs that had skips or repeats due to manufacturing defects, though I got playable replacements. 

When I interviewed the owner of the German label Edition Longplay, which specialized in 500 copy limited editions, he explained his issues with pressing problems, which he thought was caused by the overuse of the machinery and the fact that many of the people who were most knowledgeable in the use and maintainance of it had retired or died.

Amazon is the pits for their lack of packing for LPs and boxed sets, no padding at all, dropping products into sealed plastic bags.

[Pim]

13 hours ago, HutchFan said:

I still don't think your ears are bad.  Don't forget that SUPER HIGH-END equipment can reveal every single flaw in the recording process.  As far as I'm concerned, the latter is a good reason not to invest in a system like that!  

Of course, like you say, audio quality matters.  But, at some point, a line gets crossed and things get silly.  (I suppose each person has to decide where that line is for themselves.)

I'd rather get my system set up and then forget about it -- so I can focus on the music.

 

HutchFan, just when I thought I had a great hi-fi set, you are telling me I probably have not  No it's true: I think I have great stuff: Denon reciever, old but fine B&W speakers and a Rega P2 turntable but it's not comparible to the sets some people own. I am definitely no audiophile and could not afford to be one either. With some of the folks on the Hoffman board I have a feeling that sound quality weighs more than the actual music. Some of them aren't really into jazz but blindly buy every Tone Poet, every Acoustic Sounds and every Sam release.... And their conclusion is that every record is a 5 star record, even the ones that really aren't that special....

13 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

I wouldn't worry about it man, and don't be so hard on your ears. Most reviewers there and elsewhere wouldn't be able to pick out pressing/media/artist or even song in a blind test. You really don't have to spend thousands of dollars to enjoy a piece of media that cost less than $100 (or even less than $25). 

You're definitely right on that.

12 hours ago, mjazzg said:

Now mis-graded used LPs is a different matter. I've returned lots of those.

Yeah that really sucks. Lots of sellers are using the NM condition for everything: folds, cut-out holes, bend corners on the sleeve and scratched vinyl. Not to mention huge stickers. Very annoying. I sometimes sell some vinyl on the internet and almost never use NM as a condition description. As soon as I hear a crack or see a small fold in the cover it's not near mint to me. 

I once had it the other way around. I ordered some Waldron LP's from madpierrot trough Discogs. The guy had some negative feedback which is mostly for his lack of communication. But the vinyl was 10$ a record where other sellers we're asking 40$ or even more for the same record. Madpierrot rated both media and sleeve all as VG. The possibility for combined shipping of these rare items made me take the risk and order them. They arrived and were all almost nm records. I was so happy with that haul! 

I've ordered more from him since then and with slight exceptions, he seems to undergrade instead of overgrade the stuff he sells. 

12 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

no, cosmetic marks to the vinyl that don't affect play. That doesn't worry me too much. Sleeve damage sucks however.

I see what you mean. In that case I would not care about it either.

[jcam_44]

16 hours ago, Pim said:

HutchFan, just when I thought I had a great hi-fi set, you are telling me I probably have not  No it's true: I think I have great stuff: Denon reciever, old but fine B&W speakers and a Rega P2 turntable but it's not comparible to the sets some people own. I am definitely no audiophile and could not afford to be one either. With some of the folks on the Hoffman board I have a feeling that sound quality weighs more than the actual music. Some of them aren't really into jazz but blindly buy every Tone Poet, every Acoustic Sounds and every Sam release.... And their conclusion is that every record is a 5 star record, even the ones that really aren't that special....

The Hoffman board is informative but you really have to swim through some bullshit. I usually only peruse it for entertainment, and packaging info. 

[sidewinder]

16 hours ago, jcam_44 said:

The Hoffman board is informative but you really have to swim through some bullshit.

I usually end up drowning in it when I look on there. The worst is when Tone Poet threads turn into a discussion of road cycles and gear options. 

[Kevin Bresnahan]

17 hours ago, jcam_44 said:

The Hoffman board is informative but you really have to swim through some bullshit. I usually only peruse it for entertainment, and packaging info. 

Some bullshit? Only some?? I somehow mange to see a lot more than you then.

Avoid the hardware discussions if you want to keep your sanity. There are some real loonies in that forum.

[jcam_44]

2 hours ago, sidewinder said:

I usually end up drowning in it when I look on there. The worst is when Tone Poet threads turn into a discussion of road cycles and gear options. 

 

1 hour ago, bresna said:

Some bullshit? Only some?? I somehow mange to see a lot more than you then.

Avoid the hardware discussions if you want to keep your sanity. There are some real loonies in that forum.

 I’ve actually never dipped my toe into the gear sections and will continue to avoid it! Haha

I've mostly looked there for new release info and the super deluxe prince sets information. I can only imagine how the threads about the tone poets go given the few threads I’ve seen and how they go. 

[Teasing the Korean]

Contemporary vinyl is overpriced and not very good. I have had too many issues with warping and especially with off-center pressings.  

Oh, and exsheshive shybilanshe.

Part of the allure of vinyl for me was being able to buy an LP for 50 cents when a CD was $13.99.  Those days are gone.  I buy cheap CDs now and leave the new overpriced vinyl for the hipsters.  

Edited March 31, 2022 by Teasing the Korean

[sidewinder]

Careful selection is required with the pressings. Tone Poets and Acoustic Sounds Verve/Impulses are usually great - but priced accordingly. A fair amount of budget dross from dubious pressing plants out there. When vinyl is done correctly though and on the right equipment - hard to beat.

Edited March 31, 2022 by sidewinder