Charles Mingus Centennial Japanese Reissues

[bertrand]

So Mingus actually took the entire band back in the studio to record the edits? Someone had to pay for that, and I assume that someone thought they could insert them somehow. That is very interesting.

Mingus was one of the first in jazz to tinker with the recordings and not feel a need to present a session as is, starting with Mingus Ah Um which had many edits.

What annoys me personally about the marketing hype is the fact that I feel I am being talked down to. I can decide if a set of previously unreleased Mingus music is important to me or not, I do not need to have it sugar-coated. The problem with the over-hyped new releases is identical, plus in that case it is insulting to the other artists who were not fortunate enough to become media darlings. Lazy journalists are at fault there.

At least the release now has a confirmed target date and I will not be asked to take down any mention on Facebook. I guess that's progress.

[mhatta]

4 hours ago, david weiss said:

How shall I put it. The edits on the Rollins set were based on the artist's comments or wishes. He is in the habit of wanting to put out the best product possible and approached his feedback to us in this way. I don't think he has an appreciation for the keep it complete blemishes and all school of thought. 

As for this set, I came on board a little later than usual for this one. I did not hear any dropouts but I'm not sure if it was because the tapes were clean or the dropouts were addressed in mastering. However, there are edits on this set as well but it is for the opposite reason this time and quite fascinating to me. Since this was a live set and there were a few ensemble train wrecks, Mingus actually rerecorded the sections in question to be edited into the tracks as needed. I think one of the inserts they recorded was actually included on the bootleg of this music. It was pretty ambitious thinking for the time and with the tools they had then, essentially a razor blade, the edits probably would have been impossible at the time but with modern technology, the edits are possible and the train wrecks were edited out and replaced by the rerecorded inserts. It made my job more interesting at least....

I have nothing to do with this aspect of things of course but it does annoy me. Perhaps not as much as new releases being called instant classics or groundbreaking or musicians being called the most important of their generation or innovative or something. Perhaps not as easily provable as a blatant misrepresentation but for whatever reason, it annoys me more at times.... But hey, they got to sell records....

As I mentioned before, I heard that it was originally supposed to be released on Sue Mingus' label (or CBS?) but somehow scrapped, so it may not be so strange to call it The Lost Album.

Generally speaking, I respect the artist's decision, but on the other hand, sometimes I think that artists cannot do justice to their own work. I understand the feeling, but I feel that in most live jazz recordings, if you tweak it afterwards, it becomes somewhat strange.

On dropouts, etc. -- for example, in my source of Mind Reader's Convention in Milano, John Faddis's solo phrase is dubbed in at about the 10-minute mark (connected the tapes?). Also, there is a dropout of a few seconds at about the 20-minute mark. I hope it's fixed in this official release!

Regarding the "two endings", you probably mean Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress.  Some bootlegs have so-called "Alternate Ending". It doesn't seem to have been re-recording in the studio (has applause), more likely the last 3min of another live take, but I honestly don't know why Mingus decided to redo it, as both sounds like a normal ending, not train wreck.

[Dub Modal]

5 hours ago, david weiss said:

How shall I put it. The edits on the Rollins set were based on the artist's comments or wishes. He is in the habit of wanting to put out the best product possible and approached his feedback to us in this way. I don't think he has an appreciation for the keep it complete blemishes and all school of thought. 

As for this set, I came on board a little later than usual for this one. I did not hear any dropouts but I'm not sure if it was because the tapes were clean or the dropouts were addressed in mastering. However, there are edits on this set as well but it is for the opposite reason this time and quite fascinating to me. Since this was a live set and there were a few ensemble train wrecks, Mingus actually rerecorded the sections in question to be edited into the tracks as needed. I think one of the inserts they recorded was actually included on the bootleg of this music. It was pretty ambitious thinking for the time and with the tools they had then, essentially a razor blade, the edits probably would have been impossible at the time but with modern technology, the edits are possible and the train wrecks were edited out and replaced by the rerecorded inserts. It made my job more interesting at least....

Interesting information. Thank you. 

[JSngry]

21 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Mingus was one of the first in jazz to tinker with the recordings and not feel a need to present a session as is, starting with Mingus Ah Um which had many edits.

Hell, Massey Hall! and not just edits, total overdubbing!

[david weiss]

1 hour ago, bertrand said:

So Mingus actually took the entire band back in the studio to record the edits? Someone had to pay for that, and I assume that someone thought they could insert them somehow. That is very interesting.

Mingus was one of the first in jazz to tinker with the recordings and not feel a need to present a session as is, starting with Mingus Ah Um which had many edits.

What annoys me personally about the marketing hype is the fact that I feel I am being talked down to. I can decide if a set of previously unreleased Mingus music is important to me or not, I do not need to have it sugar-coated. The problem with the over-hyped new releases is identical, plus in that case it is insulting to the other artists who were not fortunate enough to become media darlings. Lazy journalists are at fault there.

At least the release now has a confirmed target date and I will not be asked to take down any mention on Facebook. I guess that's progress.

They did it on stage at Ronnie Scott's. If I recall correctly, they do it at the beginning of the next set.

[JSngry]

So Jon Faddis is on this set?

Not a deal-breaker, but...

[jk666]

On 2/17/2022 at 1:59 AM, Gheorghe said:

Mingus´ 100th Birthday would also be a good occasion to finally issue some of the concerts he did with his working group from 76-77 with Walrath, Rickie Ford, Bob Neloms. This was a roaring group and they got to heights of inspirations and emotion and the live versions of his later extended compositions like "Three or Four Shades of Blues"  and "Cumbia" are much more interesting than the overproduced studio versions. And what they did on the simple tune "For Harry Carney" with them ferocious duets with Richmond, that tension between calm and power..... I´ll never forget that as long as I live. 

This was the Mingus who we were blessed to see live. And it would be worth some CD´s (Two bootleg LP´s did exist for short time then in the late 70´s (Mingus in Buenos Aires, and Mingus in Europe on an obscure label "Burning Desire".....

Bob was a frequent customer at HMV when I worked there. He told great Mingus stories. The one I remember most is that Mingus would mispronounce Bob's name on purpose because he knew it made him mad. At one show Bob said he lost it and started chasing around the stage while Mingus laughed hysterically.

 

[Pim]

Thanks @Late, that’s what I already thought

[david weiss]

1 hour ago, mhatta said:

As I mentioned before, I heard that it was originally supposed to be released on Sue Mingus' label (or CBS?) but somehow scrapped, so it may not be so strange to call it The Lost Album.

Generally speaking, I respect the artist's decision, but on the other hand, sometimes I think that artists cannot do justice to their own work. I understand the feeling, but I feel that in most live jazz recordings, if you tweak it afterwards, it becomes somewhat strange.

On dropouts, etc. -- for example, in my source of Mind Reader's Convention in Milano, John Faddis's solo phrase is dubbed in at about the 10-minute mark (connected the tapes?). Also, there is a dropout of a few seconds at about the 20-minute mark. I hope it's fixed in this official release!

Regarding the "two endings", you probably mean Orange Was The Color Of Her Dress.  Some bootlegs have so-called "Alternate Ending". It doesn't seem to have been re-recording in the studio (has applause), more likely the last 3min of another live take, but I honestly don't know why Mingus decided to redo it, as both sounds like a normal ending, not train wreck.

I'm pretty certain there are no overdubs. Faddis does stick out a bit at times when screaming though. Mind Reader's is the other tune with an insert (and it is around the 20 minute mark so whatever you might have heard there is probably gone). After the announcements at the beginning of the 2nd set, Mingus announces that before we get started, we have to do an insert, gives the band direction and they give it a shot. It's a bit messy so they do a 2nd take. This is the part that was a train wreck. They essentially miss a chunk of a written interlude so perhaps you don't even know what's missing. It's there now though. It's a difficult passage. Once they finish these two takes, Mingus thanks the audience for their patience and they begin the set in earnest. I did this work at least 6 months ago so I don't remember the exact details of the edits but Orange was a more traditional insert. They picked it up at a certain point and played it to the end. I believe it had something to do with part of the head missing or something like that. I would have to go back and listen to be sure. Not a blatant train wreck perhaps but something Mingus felt strongly about fixing obviously. 

[Gheorghe]

16 hours ago, jk666 said:

Bob was a frequent customer at HMV when I worked there. He told great Mingus stories. The one I remember most is that Mingus would mispronounce Bob's name on purpose because he knew it made him mad. At one show Bob said he lost it and started chasing around the stage while Mingus laughed hysterically.

 

Oh, I didn´t notice this. Sure Mingus announced the band members, but he always had that quite slurred speech, not easy to understand for a European kid who has the english knowledge mostly from reading record covers.... It was also hard for me to understand the Mingus rap on Cumbia, now I know it "Who said mama´s little baby likes Shortnin ´bread ? and then it goes on with truffles, caviar, diamonds in the nose, diamonds on the toes, african gold mines...." 
Really, something of that band must appear on record....., I think I remember the last thing was a drum solo by Danny. 
When I saw the George Adams-Don Pullen Quartet after Mingus´ death, it was the same: Danny played the last solo...

Do you remember more Bob Neloms stories about Mingus ? Oh yeah, I think he announced him as "Bob Nellums" , but I thought that was not with intention, it was just Mingus´slurred speaking....., he had a very hoarse voice, almost like Miles Davis....

[bertrand]

The slurring is more pronounced in the last few years and sadly, may have been a result of his disease, not yet diagnosed at that point. Definitely noticeable on Montreux 1975.

[Late]

Well, even though I started this thread about Japanese reissues, I'm more excited about the upcoming Resonance 3-disc set.

I never did pick up the 1964 Cornell set, however, and it's nice that the Japanese market will be offering it up once again; apparently this new Japanese edition will be accompanied by a DVD ... though still "subject to change" according to the note on CD Japan.

[jk666]

On 2/19/2022 at 2:37 AM, Gheorghe said:

Do you remember more Bob Neloms stories about Mingus ? Oh yeah, I think he announced him as "Bob Nellums" , but I thought that was not with intention, it was just Mingus´ slurred speaking....., he had a very hoarse voice, almost like Miles Davis....

I wish I remembered more. I seem to remember something about Ricky Ford sitting at the bar between sets or maybe during the set and Mingus yelling at him...can't remember the details. Bob laughed a lot when he reminisced about his days with Charles.

[Gheorghe]

20 minutes ago, jk666 said:

I wish I remembered more. I seem to remember something about Ricky Ford sitting at the bar between sets or maybe during the set and Mingus yelling at him...can't remember the details. Bob laughed a lot when he reminisced about his days with Charles.

Yes, Mingus would yell at fellow musicians, or at the audience "No flashbulbs allowed !!!!" , at least when I saw them....

But I think the band was very dynamic, maybe Mingus sometimes had a more vacant look, but he played great solos on almost each tune (usually Three or Four Shades of Blues, Cumbia, For Harry Carney , Noddin ´ya head blues.

Really, it´s a shame that this band still has not appeared as some issues. There might be tons of material, and many many folks in USA, South America, Europe and even North Africa saw it and shouted with enthusiasm, so I don´t know why it is somehow neglected by potential plans of post hum releases.....

[Late]

The Complete America Session

[Gheorghe]

On 15.4.2022 at 8:32 PM, Late said:

The Complete America Session

I had the original LPs on America, "Blue Bird" an "Piticantropus Erectus". 

Yeah, that "I left my heart in San Francisco"! and that a capella horns on "Love is a Dangerous Necessity" .... sounds a bit like the horns on Mingus´ last work "Three Worlds of Drums" . 

[mjzee]

9 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

I had the original LPs on America, "Blue Bird" an "Piticantropus Erectus". 

Yeah, that "I left my heart in San Francisco"! and that a capella horns on "Love is a Dangerous Necessity" .... sounds a bit like the horns on Mingus´ last work "Three Worlds of Drums" . 

I owned them both on a Fantasy twofer "Reincarnation of a Lovebird."  Strangely, the version there of "Love is a Dangerous Necessity" faded out 30 seconds early.

[Gheorghe]

13 hours ago, mjzee said:

I owned them both on a Fantasy twofer "Reincarnation of a Lovebird."  Strangely, the version there of "Love is a Dangerous Necessity" faded out 30 seconds early.

Yes, it fades away, but anyway it is not well organized, more a sketch. Because there is no musical connection between that fascinating a capella which maybe have been the first "idea" of things like "Todo Modo" or "Three Drums" , and that simple slow blues (strange enough in D-natural as much as I remember). 

I mostly listened to this session for Bobby Jones who really was something else but underrated. 

Maybe I was a bit disappointed when I heard it first and I will tell you why: 

I was a kid of the 70´s and my first and most enduring impression of Mingus (with Dolphy and so on in 64) was just 6 years ago (then). So, thinkin about musical changes from 64-70 (maybe influenced by the differrence between Miles 1964 and 1970) I had thought that will be the same with Mingus. So my expectation was "Byard, Richmond even more in action and more into "far out" , more free sections, less "swing", and then I was astonished it was a quite tame thing, mostly straight ahead swing and .......you don´t really hear Danny Richmond ?!!!!

[Gheorghe]

Yesterday was Mingus´ 100th birthday. He means so much to me and actually, his "Great Concert in Paris 1964" with Dolphy was the second album I had after Miles´ "Steamin". So....Mingus was and still is a source of inspiration for me and one of the very favourite musicians and composers of mine. And I was lucky I saw him live. 

[Late]

On 2/15/2022 at 7:50 PM, Late said:

8 Ultra-High Quality Compact Discs.

I purchased two of these new Japanese UHQCD Mingus discs. So far, I've listened to one: The Black Saint & The Sinner Lady. I was able to give it a close listen all the way through as well as A/B it with the U.S. digipack release (from circa 1995). Impressions:

• Yes, this Japanese version sounds better—not compressed, and very natural. The first few seconds of the disc are free of the minor distortion that's present on the U.S. digipak edition. (Plus, it's nice, from a nerdy point of view, to have the Impulse! logo back on the cover art. I hate it when U.S. editions remove original logos.)

• I noticed, with the U.S. edition, the mids are considerably boosted. This helps to bring out some of the inner voicings, but the treble, as a result, tends to suffer some (rolled off?). Still, overall, the U.S. edition, considering its age, is really not that bad. I wouldn't rush out for the Japanese edition if you're happy with the U.S. edition.

• This new Japanese edition, even when the volume is turned way up, creates no ear fatigue (well, that was my own experience). You can also hear more clearly where the engineer (Rudy) placed Charlie Mariano's overdubs. Oh, and the section with Jay Berliner's guitar? Considerably cleaner and more present. The piano still sounds somewhat tinny, and some of the edits just weren't that good to begin with. Jerome Richardson's solos are of course still thrilling and jump right out at you.

This is such an expressive, even monumental, album—it's no wonder people consistently list it as their favorite, as well as Mingus's masterwork. I first heard it in 1990, and have never tired of listening to it. It helps though, I think, to be able to listen to the album in its entirety, if possible. Not only was this a peak in Mingus's recorded output, but I think it was for Charlie Mariano as well. Without Mariano on Mingus's Impulse! records, the vitality and passion wouldn't be what it is. He gave it his absolute all, and we get to repeatedly reap the rewards. In some ways, though I love Dolphy with Mingus, it's Mariano who was the perfect saxophonist for Mingus.

 

Oh, and these new Japanese editions come with a curious, but beautiful, plastic folder of sorts—with two well-reproduced photos of Mingus and "100th Anniversary" type. I don't know what one would use the folder for, but as Mingus paraphernalia, they're quite attractive.

[Dub Modal]

Thanks for the review 

[jazzbo]

I should get Pre-Bird, Town Hall Concert and Mysterious Blues this week from cdjapan. I expect the Candid to sound as splendid as the most recent reissues do.

[Late]

2 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I expect the Candid to sound as splendid as the most recent reissues do.

It does! I also spun Reincarnation of A Love Bird. I A/B'ed the new mono remaster with the early German edition. I wouldn't say one is "better" than the other necessarily, but the new Japanese edition is punchier. Very enjoyable. Cecil Taylor's Air (the new remaster) is the same way.

[jazzbo]

Great. I bought Reincarnation too, forgot to add that, and the newest Cecil Taylor Candids as well.

I didn't buy any of the Mingus Impulse titles as I have those on Analogue Productions SACDs and really like the sound of those. (And I confess, I am not as crazy about the Impulse Mingus titles as his work for other labels--with the exception of Play Piano which I adore).

Edited April 26, 2022 by jazzbo

[felser]

4 hours ago, jazzbo said:

I didn't buy any of the Mingus Impulse titles as I have those on Analogue Productions SACDs and really like the sound of those. (And I confess, I am not as crazy about the Impulse Mingus titles as his work for other labels--with the exception of Play Piano which I adore).

The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is my favorite Mingus album ever!  Different strokes for different folks.