Third Stream Music Recommendations

[Teasing the Korean]

I thought we had an old thread on Third Stream, but I could not find it. 

Given my tastes, Third Stream is a genre that I should like in theory, but from what I've heard, it rarely delivers.  For example, I have several things by John Lewis, and they come off as precious, mannered, and - I'll just say it - boring. 

Is Rolf Liebermann's 12-tone "Concerto for Jazz Band and Symphony" considered Third Stream?  It gets off to a good start, but ultimately, it is not satisfying to me.

What are some of these best "Third Stream" albums/ pieces, either by composers 1) who deliberately set out to to Third Stream, or 2) who accidentally ended up there?  I love a lot of film and TV scoring that combines 20th-century orchestral devices with jazz.  I would love to find a Third Stream album as good as some of those.

Thanks in advance.

[Dub Modal]

All Music's page on Third Stream albums: https://www.allmusic.com/style/third-stream-ma0000012292/albums

I have the Giuffre Ezz-thetics CD () on that page and am familiar with all of the MJQ's they list (although it seem those albums were included simply because they're MJQ albums and not necessarily 3rd stream). 

I also have some albums from Ralph Towner (Solstice ) and Eberhard Weber (Silent Feet & Yellow Fields ) who are generally regarded as being 3rd Stream "influenced." 

They're also listing Johnny Richards and I can see that. I've got the Mosaic Select and while I barely ever listen to it, there are pockets within tunes included there that I enjoy. I wouldn't call myself a 3rd stream aficionado or fan. More of a casual...

[kh1958]

The Birth of the Third Stream (Columbia)

Edited February 15, 2022 by kh1958

[Teasing the Korean]

30 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

The Birth of the Third Stream (Columbia)

For a while, I kept finding copies of the Gunther Schuller LP for brass, with the white cover.  I couldn't give them away! I may still have two copies.  I will have to re-spin this.

[Rabshakeh]

I like those two records, particularly those tracks that were originally on Modern Jazz Concert: Six Compositions Commissioned by the Brandeis University Festival of the Arts. The mix of progressive jazz with the music of Bartok and other 20th century names comes off well there.

My impression is that music that is 'good' gets promoted out of the genre in the public imagination. A lot of Mingus or Russell is of a sort with the music (including theirs) on those Birth of the Third Stream records, but it gets treated as great jazz, rather than an example of the subgenre.

[kh1958]

24 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

For a while, I kept finding copies of the Gunther Schuller LP for brass, with the white cover.  I couldn't give them away! I may still have two copies.  I will have to re-spin this.

Also, Music for Brass (Columbia).

My copy appears to be signed by Gunther Schuller, John Lewis, Joseph Wilder, Miles Davis, Dimitri Mitropoulos, and J.J. Johnson.

Edited February 15, 2022 by kh1958

[JSngry]

I think that as a music, a lot of it was premature and forced. as a concept, though, it's instincts were true and continue to be relevant. It's impossible to be in the world as it flows and not get, at the very least, splashed by all the waters.

Ran Blake is/was the chairman of the Third Stream Department at the New England Conservatory of Music:

https://www.ranblake.com/ran

The Newest Sound Around was encouraged and informally supervised by the man who would become Ran’s most significant mentor and champion, Gunther Schuller. The two began their forty-year friendship at a chance meeting at Atlantic Records’ New York studio in January 1959. Less than two years earlier, Schuller had coined the term “Third Stream” at a lecture at Brandeis University. Schuller was recording on Atlantic Records with future jazz legends John Lewis, Bill Evans, Eric Dolphy, and Ornette Coleman. Ran accepted what he calls “a low-level position” at Atlantic that allowed him to be close to inspirations like  Chris Connor, Ray Charles, and Harlem’s famous Apollo Theater. 

 

Schuller immediately saw the potential of Ran Blake’s unorthodox but unique musical style, and invited him to study at the Lenox School of Jazz in the summers of 1959 and 1960. While in Lenox, home also to Tanglewood, the classical music mecca in western Massachusetts, Ran studied with the jazz giants who formed the faculty of this one-of-a-kind institution—Lewis, Oscar Peterson, Bill Russo, and many others—and began formulating his style in earnest. He also studied in New York with piano legends Mary Lou Williams and Mal Waldron;  other teachers included Bill Russo, Bill Evans, John Lewis, Max Roach, Oscar Peterson, and Stan Kenton. During those years he became close to Thelonious Monk and his family, and according to Nellie Monk, was the most trusted babysitter for their children. Monk remains Ran’s favorite pianist. 

 

A year after Schuller became President of Boston’s New England Conservatory in 1967,  he created the first department in the U.S. to offer a degree in jazz studies. Ran was invited to join other remarkable artists on the faculty Schuller was assembling, including George Russell, Carl Atkins, Jaki Byard, Jimmy Giuffre, and others. In 1973, Ran became the first chair of the Third Stream Department, which he co-founded with Schuller at the school. The department was recently renamed the Contemporary Improvisation Department, to acknowledge its evolution beyond Jazz and Classical to embrace the incredibly rich and varied World Music traditions.

 

Ran Blake’s teaching emphasizes what he calls “the primacy of the ear,” described at length in his 2010 book of the same title. His innovative approach elevates the listening process to the same status as the written score. This approach complements the stylistic synthesis of the original Third Stream concept, while also providing an open, broad based learning environment that promotes the development of innovation and individuality. Musicians of note who have studied with him at NEC include Dominique Eade, Don Byron, Matthew Shipp, Sara Serpa, and John Medeski. 

 

[Teasing the Korean]

14 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

Also, Music for Brass (Columbia).

My copy appears to be signed by Gunther Schuller, John Lewis, Joseph Wilder, Miles Davis, Dimitri Mitropoulos, and J.J. Johnson.

This album appears to be a part of the CD collection that you recommended.

[kh1958]

3 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

This album appears to be a part of the CD collection that you recommended.

That's true. I was thinking of the albums when I posted, but I do have the CD also.

[Milestones]

I recommend Jim Hall's Textures and, to a lesser extent, By Arrangement.

I also like the tracks of Andrew Hill with a string quartet, from the Mosaic box.    

J.J. Johnson's The Brass Orchestra is basically in the Third Stream vein.

I would certainly call Sketches of Spain Third Stream.

 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Milestones

[HutchFan]

Quite a bit of Anthony Davis' output exists at (or around) the crossroads of jazz and classical music.   I'm thinking of albums like Hemispheres (Gramavision, 1983) and Undine (Gramavision, 1987).  I'm not sure whether Davis would label this music "Third Stream" however.  (That term sorta has implications for a certain place in time.)  Earlier in his career, Davis primarily worked in the world of jazz, and -- as I understand it -- he's now largely focused on through-composed/classical music.  But he's always moved through and touched on both worlds.

Richie Beirach trained for a long time as a classical pianist (Arthur Rubinstein was a mentor), and he's another jazz musician whose jazz integrates wide swathes of classical music into his approach.  From Chopin to 20th century figures like Scriabin, Prokofiev and Bartok.  Again, not sure I'd call what he does Third Stream.  It's just Beirach's way of making music.  

IMO, the thing that makes artists like Davis & Beirach successful is that the classical stuff doesn't seem like it's been grafted on.  Classical music is just part of their musical identity.  The jazz and classical strands are fully integrated; it's part of their personal vocabulary.  

 

 

5 hours ago, Milestones said:

    J.J. Johnson's The Brass Orchestra is basically in the Third Stream vein.

Good call on that J.J. Johnson record.

Made me think of this also:

I LOVE this record. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, HutchFan said:

IMO, the thing that makes artists like Davis & Beirach successful is that the classical stuff doesn't seem like it's been grafted on.  Classical music is just part of their musical identity.  The jazz and classical strands are fully integrated; it's part of their personal vocabulary. 

There ya' go.

In 1958 or whenever, there was a lot of "experimentation" (like, let's but a fish head on a dog's ass and SEE WHAT HAPPENS!!!!) and forced "fusion" (and a little bit that was indeed organic, if closeted, like, GOTTA PROVE MY JAZZ)).

Nowadays, it seems more forced to be "pure" in one limited vocabulary that it does to be touched by all streams, not stopping at just the "third".

[Teasing the Korean]

3 hours ago, HutchFan said:

I LOVE this record. 

Yes, this is great!

 

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Yes, this is great!

How have I never even heard of this before now? Time to track one down.

[mhatta]

I'm not sure how to define Third Stream (I know Schuller's "What Third Stream Is Not"), so I'll just say that it's kind of "classical" austere feeling. Andrew Hill's with strings session is good, and Eric Dolphy's Out There sounds like it too. How about Ken NcIntyre?  It's almost forgotten, but I like his output on United Artists.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

29 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

How have I never even heard of this before now? Time to track one down.

Lots of records, so little money!

13 minutes ago, mhatta said:

I'm not sure how to define Third Stream (I know Schuller's "What Third Stream Is Not"), so I'll just say that it's kind of "classical" austere feeling.

I was originally thinking of people like Schuller and Lewis who were self-consciously part of the third stream.  If there are others who were part of that rat pack, I would be interested in learning about them, but I'm also looking at things more broadly.

[Rooster_Ties]

If Andrew Hill’s date with strings qualifies (and I think it does) — then the next-generation incarnation of that is Greg Osby’s Symbols of Light (2001) — with Jason Moran, plus a string quartet (that includes Reggie Workman’s daughter on cello).

The sole Moran-penned track from the album is track 2: “Replay In Kind”. I think(?) Osby may have overdubbed some additional lines on the main statements of the head, but I’m open to being corrected on that (if it’s all strings). I’m about positive Osby has done some similar overdubbing on a couple other of his BN albums from this era. Anyway, Moran’s “Replay In Kind” is a real corker…

And here’s the album’s opening track #1: “3 For Civility” — which is a little less exuberant…

 

Anyone else dig this album?

[Chuck Nessa]

A shitload of Roscoe Mitchell recordings in the last few years qualifies.

[Dub Modal]

In light of those Mitchell recordings, how about the Muhal Richard Abrams Orchestra albums such as Rejoicing with the Light, Hearinga Suite and Blu Blu Blu? 

[Chuck Nessa]

Around 1963 Gunther Schuller visited the University of Iowa for some event and joined a "music appreciation" class I attended. His presentation was about "third stream".

After the class he stayed around for discussion with the class. I mentioned John Lewis's "European Windows" and he said something like "Lewis is a friend, but not a real composer". At least that is my ancient memory.

[Larry Kart]

I would have thought that "No Sun in Venice," for one, was the work of a real composer. It's more memorable than anything Gunther ever wrote.

[Teasing the Korean]

8 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

I would have thought that "No Sun in Venice," for one, was the work of a real composer. It's more memorable than anything Gunther ever wrote.

I really like the MJQ LP.  Do you happen to know if the music as heard in the film was MJQ, or was it orchestrated?

[Rooster_Ties]

Another modern Third Stream work I stumbled on in a bargain bin 15+ years ago, and really love, is Jeff Beal’s Alternate Route (2000).

https://www.discogs.com/master/888986-Jeff-Beal-Alternate-Route

This review covers it well…

https://www.allmusic.com/album/alternate-route-mw0000032173

The first half of the disc recorded in 1994, is a side-long symphonic suite with Beal as the trumpet soloist, and the second (from 1996) features him in front of big band in the Maria Schneider tradition, with Beal also as the soloist throughout in another side-long suite.

Here’s the best track from the orchestral side, which I included on a blindfold test here about 15-18 years ago (time sure flies).

I understand Beal has done a lot of film and TV scoring, but this is the only recording of his I’ve ever heard (or seen).

EDIT:  Looks like Beal has gone on to do a LOT of scoring for many big-name projects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Beal

Edited February 16, 2022 by Rooster_Ties

[kh1958]

10 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

If Andrew Hill’s date with strings qualifies (and I think it does) — then the next-generation incarnation of that is Greg Osby’s Symbols of Light (2001) — with Jason Moran, plus a string quartet (that includes Reggie Workman’s daughter on cello).

The sole Moran-penned track from the album is track 2: “Replay In Kind”. I think(?) Osby may have overdubbed some additional lines on the main statements of the head, but I’m open to being corrected on that (if it’s all strings). I’m about positive Osby has done some similar overdubbing on a couple other of his BN albums from this era. Anyway, Moran’s “Replay In Kind” is a real corker…

And here’s the album’s opening track #1: “3 For Civility” — which is a little less exuberant…

 

Anyone else dig this album?

Yes, I do.

[Teasing the Korean]

45 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

EDIT:  Looks like Beal has gone on to do a LOT of scoring for many big-name projects.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Beal

Yes, I have his "Monk" soundtrack!  And I don't mean Thelonious!