Major label Free Jazz

[Rabshakeh]

It never fails to seem odd to me how many of the classic free jazz records of the earlier waves were released on major labels.

A lot of free / avant garde jazz records from the 1960s, particularly Archie Shepp's Impulse!s and Braxton's Aristas, are even sequenced like pop records, with what appears to be the catchy "big single" as the first track, and then a B side with lesser or more difficult material.

Was this just an attractive way to sequence an album, or does this reflect actual singles releases? If so, were any of them "hits"? Even if not released as a single, did they get played on the radio or TV? What kind of stations or programmes touched that stuff? 

The era of free jazz on major labels goes on for am incredibly long time: all the way to the late 1970s / over a decade. Were these labels making money on these things?

[Teasing the Korean]

  On 12/26/2021 at 8:15 AM, Rabshakeh said:

It never fails to seem odd to me how many of the classic free jazz records of the earlier waves were released on major labels.

A lot of free / avant garde jazz records from the 1960s, particularly Archie Shepp's Impulse!s and Braxton's Aristas, are even sequenced like pop records, with what appears to be the catchy "big single" as the first track, and then a B side with lesser or more difficult material.

Was this just an attractive way to sequence an album, or does this reflect actual singles releases? If so, were any of them "hits"? Even if not released as a single, did they get played on the radio or TV? What kind of stations or programmes touched that stuff? 

The era of free jazz on major labels goes on for am incredibly long time: all the way to the late 1970s / over a decade. Were these labels making money on these things?

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I can tell you regarding Arista, their philosophy was that mega sellers like Barry Manilow should underwrite the costs of releasing "art."  Those albums were not designed to make money.  They had Barry Manilow for that.

I have no idea about singles or "hits."  Producers of all kinds of LPs in all genres typically wanted strong openers and closers to each LP side.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[HutchFan]

  On 12/26/2021 at 6:29 PM, Teasing the Korean said:

I can tell you regarding Arista, their philosophy was that mega sellers like Barry Manilow should underwrite the costs of releasing "art."  Those albums were not designed to make money.  They had Barry Manilow for that.

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I've read similar things about Elvis Presley bank-rolling classical music at RCA.

Unfortunately, that sort of thinking -- that more commercial music should be used to underwrite less commercial music as a sort of civic obligation -- subsequently went the way of the dodo bird.  

 

[Rabshakeh]

But was there radio play and sales? 

[HutchFan]

As far as Impulse goes... I've read somewhere that their Various Artist LPs -- like Impulse Energy Essentials and No Energy Crisis -- sold very well in the early-70s.  

Of course, I'm sure that Coltrane's records continued to sell, even after his passing.  No idea about Shepp or others. 

 

[JSngry]

I'd be curious to know at what point "divisions" devolved into "cost centers".

[Teasing the Korean]

If we are talking about the 1950s and 1960s, record labels had to quickly build hi-fi mono LP catalogs, and a few years later, stereo catalogs.  So given the booming postwar economy, it made sense for labels to record as many things as possible, including oddball classical/jazz/instrumental pop things, through the earnings of mega-sellers like West Side Story.  Think of Columbia's "Modern Music" classical series, or whatever it was called.

By the 1970s, most of the major labels had back catalogs as large as they needed, so it made less and less sense to subsidize the costs of albums with narrow audience interest.  Arista must have been one of the last US labels to do this, but there may be other examples I'm forgetting. 

[JSngry]

What were the first musics recorded for Compact Disc, though?

Jazz and Classical 

[felser]

  On 12/26/2021 at 9:35 PM, HutchFan said:

As far as Impulse goes... I've read somewhere that their Various Artist LPs -- like Impulse Energy Essentials and No Energy Crisis -- sold very well in the early-70s.  

Of course, I'm sure that Coltrane's records continued to sell, even after his passing.  No idea about Shepp or others. 

 

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Energy Essentials was very attractive, 3 LP's fir the price of one IIRC.  It was incredibly important for me, my intro to Mingus, Oliver Nelson, etc.

[Teasing the Korean]

  On 12/26/2021 at 11:07 PM, JSngry said:

What were the first musics recorded for Compact Disc, though?

Jazz and Classical 

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Right, because CDs at that time were marketed toward people with money and supposed corresponding "taste."  

Of course, a lot of jazz and classical guys were very disappointed by the early CDs, and rightfully so.

[Rabshakeh]

  On 12/26/2021 at 11:50 PM, felser said:

Energy Essentials was very attractive, 3 LP's fir the price of one IIRC.  It was incredibly important for me, my intro to Mingus, Oliver Nelson, etc.

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Was this a pun on "energy music"? Was the term so commonly used that you could market a sampler with it?

[Gheorghe]

  On 12/26/2021 at 8:15 AM, Rabshakeh said:

It never fails to seem odd to me how many of the classic free jazz records of the earlier waves were released on major labels.

A lot of free / avant garde jazz records from the 1960s, particularly Archie Shepp's Impulse!s and Braxton's Aristas, are even sequenced like pop records, with what appears to be the catchy "big single" as the first track, and then a B side with lesser or more difficult material.

Was this just an attractive way to sequence an album, or does this reflect actual singles releases? If so, were any of them "hits"? Even if not released as a single, did they get played on the radio or TV? What kind of stations or programmes touched that stuff? 

The era of free jazz on major labels goes on for am incredibly long time: all the way to the late 1970s / over a decade. Were these labels making money on these things?

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In the 70´s and early 80´s the Austrian Free Jazz Icone Fritz Novotny (Reform Art Unit) had his radio show about Free Jazz on ORF Ö1 . I knew him personally and got a lot of listening advices from him. I already was a fan of Ornette Coleman and others, and he gave me tapes to listen, stuff he did with Reform Art Unit and a concert they did with Burton Green....

[Rabshakeh]

  On 12/27/2021 at 9:54 AM, Gheorghe said:

In the 70´s and early 80´s the Austrian Free Jazz Icone Fritz Novotny (Reform Art Unit) had his radio show about Free Jazz on ORF Ö1 . I knew him personally and got a lot of listening advices from him. I already was a fan of Ornette Coleman and others, and he gave me tapes to listen, stuff he did with Reform Art Unit and a concert they did with Burton Green....

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That's great. What a legend Novotny was. Do you still have those tapes?

[Gheorghe]

  On 12/27/2021 at 10:12 AM, Rabshakeh said:

That's great. What a legend Novotny was. Do you still have those tapes?

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Sorry to say no, because he didn´t donate them to me, but let me listen to them. I remember especially well the 1982 "Pannonian Flower" he worked on during that time, and the tape with Burton Green. Burton also played the Novotny composition with them on concert, and then in exchange of requests he called Monk´s "Pannonica", great memories, but only in my head.....

[Onxidlib]

  On 12/26/2021 at 8:15 AM, Rabshakeh said:

It never fails to seem odd to me how many of the classic free jazz records of the earlier waves were released on major labels.

A lot of free / avant garde jazz records from the 1960s, particularly Archie Shepp's Impulse!s and Braxton's Aristas, are even sequenced like pop records, with what appears to be the catchy "big single" as the first track, and then a B side with lesser or more difficult material.

Was this just an attractive way to sequence an album, or does this reflect actual singles releases? If so, were any of them "hits"? Even if not released as a single, did they get played on the radio or TV? What kind of stations or programmes touched that stuff? 

The era of free jazz on major labels goes on for am incredibly long time: all the way to the late 1970s / over a decade. Were these labels making money on these things?

Expand  

I would like to add two observations. One I've made a few years ago and the other one only recently.

1. According the new book about Anthony Braxton (by Tim Hoyer; released this November in Germany / 700pp - ISBN 978-3-95593-000-4) Arista sold 20.000 copies of their Braxton LPs as of 1977. "For Trio", "For Four Orchestras" and "Alto Saxophone Improvisation 1979" weren't even released by then.

2. There's a jukebox version of John Coltrane's "Ascencion". Seems unbelieveable but take a look at Mats Gustafsson website.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Onxidlib

[Rabshakeh]

  On 12/27/2021 at 11:45 AM, Onxidlib said:

2. There's a jukebox version of John Coltrane's "Ascencion". Seems unbelieveable but take a look at Mats Gustafsson website.

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That really is amazing...

[Onxidlib]

  On 12/27/2021 at 12:30 PM, Rabshakeh said:

That really is amazing...

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Yep I agree. Unfortunately the jukeboxes I experienced during the 1970s here in Bavaria didn't include such music....

[Rabshakeh]

  On 12/27/2021 at 12:35 PM, Onxidlib said:

Yep I agree. Unfortunately the jukeboxes I experienced during the 1970s here in Bavaria didn't include such music....

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Strangely nor did 1990s Camden. 

[Onxidlib]

  On 12/27/2021 at 12:54 PM, Rabshakeh said:

Strangely nor did 1990s Camden. 

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Did you actually see jukeboxes in the 1990s? If memory serves me right I saw the last (ruined) jukebox sometime in 1987/88.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Onxidlib

[JSngry]

About those 45s...are they all marked "for promotional use"? Because that's an accounting gambit.

otoh - jazz 45s...yes, they existed well into the 70s...I suspect more for accounting and DJ use as for jukebox, but I can tell you that jukebox content varied widely from neighborhood to neighbor hood.

.

[Rabshakeh]

  On 12/27/2021 at 12:58 PM, Onxidlib said:

Did you actually see jukeboxes in the 1990s? If memory serves me right I saw the last (ruined) jukebox sometime in 1987/88.

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Definitely. Although they were CD jukeboxes rather than the real thing.

There's still a place in Clerkenwell that has a working original. The Three Crowns. Great pub.

[mjazzg]

  On 12/27/2021 at 1:30 PM, Rabshakeh said:

There's still a place in Clerkenwell that has a working original. The Three Crowns. Great pub.

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Oh yes, for a few years it was the post work local along with the Belgian beer bar in Jerusalem Passage. I loved working round there when it was on the cusp of changing

[Onxidlib]

  On 12/27/2021 at 1:30 PM, Rabshakeh said:

Definitely. Although they were CD jukeboxes rather than the real thing.

There's still a place in Clerkenwell that has a working original. The Three Crowns. Great pub.

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Interesting, never saw a CD jukebox. But The Three Crowns sounds nice: great pub and jukebox. My main interactions with a jukebox was at an old bavarian pub with a beer garden in summer. Plus they had (and still have) a bowling alley and on the other side of the buildings a shooting range for - I suppose - air riffles. And not at least there's an old big cannon from the German / French war 1870/71 on the right side of the area's entrance. All this a few hundreds meter away from the local peak from there one had a great view to the local lake (Starnberger See) and the mountains in the background. Now the trees are cutting any view into the distance.... seems my memory got a flash...

Edited December 27, 2021 by Onxidlib

[Rabshakeh]

  On 12/27/2021 at 4:24 PM, mjazzg said:

Oh yes, for a few years it was the post work local along with the Belgian beer bar in Jerusalem Passage. I loved working round there when it was on the cusp of changing

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There's still the Jerusalem Tavern. I find it tend to go there in the winter and the 3 Crowns in summer, largely because, juke box or not, it's really a pavement pub.

[Onxidlib]

  On 12/27/2021 at 7:03 PM, Rabshakeh said:

There's still the Jerusalem Tavern. I find it tend to go there in the winter and the 3 Crowns in summer, largely because, juke box or not, it's really a pavement pub.

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...pavement pub? Does it mean that you're literally on the pub's outside enjoying a pint?