ORNETTE COLEMAN - ROUND TRIP: ORNETTE COLEMAN ON BLUE NOTE

[Chuck Nessa]

6 hours ago, bertrand said:

So there must have been more material on the 2-LP test pressings than on the single LP ESP disk. I wonder if any of the test pressings survived.

The catalog numbers were BN 4210 and 4211. This info (including titles) is in the Ruppli/Cuscuna Blue Note book. The ESP record is 4211 and the titles slated for 4210 were Story Teller, I Don't Love You, Children's Books and Architecture.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Chuck Nessa

[John L]

Thanks, Chuck. 

Actually, it looks like more of the Town Hall Concert has been issued in various forms than I thought.   I only have the original ESP disc and thought that was it.  But my understanding is that Blue Note BST84210 never saw the light of day and Blue Note no longer has copyright to this music.  Or am I wrong?  Was transferring copyright of the Town Hall Concert to Ornette part of the Golden Circle deal?

Lord makes it look like ESP released I Don't Love You and Children's Book on one of their CD issues.  I have never seen it and was unaware.  

Town Hall 1962 : String Quartet : Selwart Clarke, Nathan Goldstein (vln) Julien Barber (viola) Kermit Moore (cello)

Live "Town Hall", New York, December 21, 1962

Dedication to poets and writers

ESP 1006, 1006-2 [CD]

[C6992]Add

Ornette Coleman Trio : Ornette Coleman (as) David Izenzon (b) Charles Moffett (d)

Live "Town Hall", New York, December 21, 1962

	Story teller	Blue Note BST84210 (see note)
	Sadness	ESP 1006, 1033 (ed), 1006-2 [CD], Musica Jazz
		(It)MJP1018
	The ark	ESP 1006, 1006-2 [CD]
	Opus D [Taurus] (b solo)	ESP 1006-2 [CD]
	I don't love you	-           , Blue Note BST84210 (see note)
	Children's book	-           , Blue Note BST84210 (see note)

[C6993] Add

Chris Towns (p) Nappy Allen (g) Barney Richardson (el-b) added

Live "Town Hall", New York, December 21, 1962

Blues misused

(unissued)

[C6994] Add

Chris Towns, Nappy Allen, Barney Richardson out

Live "Town Hall", New York, December 21, 1962

	Architect	(unissued)
	Play it straight	Blue Note BST84210 (see note)
	Doughnut	ESP 1006, 1006-2 [CD]

Note:

Blue Note originally scheduled to issue 2 LPs (BST84210, BST84211) from this concert; because of legal problems these LPs were never released. The content of BST84210 is listed above while BST84211 duplicates ESP 1006 - with the addition of "Opus D [Taurus]". All titles from ESP 1006 also on ESP (Jap)7420, SFX-10727, BT-5001, 15PJ-2019, Fontana (E)SFJL923, Magic Music 30010 [CD], Base (It)1006.

Edited December 24, 2021 by John L

[Guy Berger]

5 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

But all BN´s including his sideman playing with JackieMcLean is much more conservative than other projects. I always call it "Free Jazz Light". Especially "Cry of Love" and the other from the same date "New York" or somehow like this, are very accessible OC releases. I like most "Garden of Souls". 

I don’t have an encyclopedic collection, but I don’t hear the BNs as particularly conservative.  They are generally more adventurous than the Atlantics (especially the early Atlantics) and about comparable to the 1971 Science Fiction sessions.

Separate point: it’s be an interesting essay for someone to write how for listeners/musicians of a certain age, the BNs and Columbias (and maybe Impulses?) were the main entry point into Ornette’s music rather than the Atlantics.

Another fun essay would be how when, in the early 80s you had the “neoconservative” turn in institutional jazz (Wynton/Crouch/JALC), it embraced early Ornette (through the first 1-2 Atlantic albums) and basically ignored everything that came after

Edited December 24, 2021 by Guy Berger

[hbbfam]

On 12/23/2021 at 7:54 PM, Brad said:

It’s a Tone Poet set. No CDs, no downloads. 

For what its worth, and I realize I am a bit off topic, but I just downloaded the HD At The Golden Circle, Vol.1 and the sound quality is excellent.

[mhatta]

Blue Note Book: The 21st Century Edition (p. 277) has pictures of test pressing discs of BN4210 & BN4211 (I scanned it, but somehow I can't upload pic now).  Seems they were made in March 3 & 10, 1965. The rumor has it that a set is now in a posession of a Japanese collector, and according to him, the actual contents are:

BN4210: Children's Books, Story Teller, Play It Straight, I Don't Love You, Architecture

BN4211: The Ark, Sadness, Doughnut, Taurus, Dedictaion to Poets and Writers

And Ornette didn't join Nappy Allen's band.

[bertrand]

50 minutes ago, mhatta said:

Blue Note Book: The 21st Century Edition (p. 277) has pictures of test pressing discs of BN4210 & BN4211 (I scanned it, but somehow I can't upload pic now).  Seems they were made in March 3 & 10, 1965. The rumor has it that a set is now in a posession of a Japanese collector, and according to him, the actual contents are:

BN4210: Children's Books, Story Teller, Play It Straight, I Don't Love You, Architecture

BN4211: The Ark, Sadness, Doughnut, Taurus, Dedictaion to Poets and Writers

And Ornette didn't join Nappy Allen's band.

How do we convince him to make a digital version for circulation before it is too late?

[Chuck Nessa]

There wouldn't be just one set, and the tapes probably exist.

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, Chuck Nessa said:

There wouldn't be just one set, and the tapes probably exist.

I was thinking the tapes still exist. Are they still owned by Blue Note or did they revert to Ornette and now Denardo?

If Blue Note still owns them than that is what they should put out, not this dumb package.

If Denardo has ownership, then our only hope is if someone who has a test pressing is willing to make a transfer for posterity under the 'you can't take it with you' argument. Denardo had no interest using any Ornette archival material, according to my sources. 

Edited December 25, 2021 by bertrand

[John L]

I imagine if Blue Note owned them, they would have put them out long ago.  

I don't know of any other existing Ornette Coleman recordings made from April, 1961-May, 1965.  It is a huge gap in his discography. 

[bertrand]

2 hours ago, John L said:

I imagine if Blue Note owned them, they would have put them out long ago.  

I don't know of any other existing Ornette Coleman recordings made from April, 1961-May, 1965.  It is a huge gap in his discography. 

Yes, that is definitely a motivating factor here.

[Gheorghe]

On 24.12.2021 at 5:56 PM, Guy Berger said:

I don’t have an encyclopedic collection, but I don’t hear the BNs as particularly conservative.  They are generally more adventurous than the Atlantics (especially the early Atlantics) and about comparable to the 1971 Science Fiction sessions.

Separate point: it’s be an interesting essay for someone to write how for listeners/musicians of a certain age, the BNs and Columbias (and maybe Impulses?) were the main entry point into Ornette’s music rather than the Atlantics.

Another fun essay would be how when, in the early 80s you had the “neoconservative” turn in institutional jazz (Wynton/Crouch/JALC), it embraced early Ornette (through the first 1-2 Atlantic albums) and basically ignored everything that came after

Hello ! 

About BN´s being more conservative or not: I thought because you always still have parts of straight ahead groove with a walking bass. I noticed this on "Empty Foxhole" on the first tune "Good Old Days", on the 2  Golden Circle and on other occasions. 

About your separate point: I´m a 1959 born (wasn´t that the year when "Shape of Jazz to Come" was recorded ? So I came into jazz in the 70´s and as you know, in the record shops in general there was more the new music, the electric jazz and for acoustic you had to seek some remainders from old cataloges. 
We had about three record stores with good jazz sections: Radio Kratz in 1060 Viena, Emi-Columbia in 1010 Viena and it was a bit later someone told me about "Red Octopus" in 1080 Viena.
In the first shop I could purchase "Empty Foxhole" and the then latest album, the 1976 recorded thing with the early edition of "Prime Time". 
Later in Autumn there was the Impulse "Crisis", which I thought is the most advanced thing since it doesn´t have straight ahead swing sections...
At "Emi Columbia" I purchased "Golden Circle Vol. 1 and 2". 
And I loved and love everything Ornette did, from the first listening on. There is no way I would consider the electric Prime Time inferior to the old acoustic days.
"Neoconservative" institutional jazz doesn´t mean nothing to me.
I was there when the actual style of the decade was Jazz-Rock and electric Jazz, same as people of the generation of my parents possible was there when Bird and Diz played on 52nd Street. So how could I exclude a certain decade, a certain style. You had to learn music, not only from the historical point, but from the point to be able to understand it and play it properly, maybe add your own thoughts to it.....

You can´t appear as a new boy wonder in the style of 60´s Miles and make speeches where you tell us, what´s good and what has to be ignored.....

[clifford_thornton]

On 12/24/2021 at 6:00 PM, mhatta said:

Blue Note Book: The 21st Century Edition (p. 277) has pictures of test pressing discs of BN4210 & BN4211 (I scanned it, but somehow I can't upload pic now).  Seems they were made in March 3 & 10, 1965. The rumor has it that a set is now in a posession of a Japanese collector, and according to him, the actual contents are:

BN4210: Children's Books, Story Teller, Play It Straight, I Don't Love You, Architecture

BN4211: The Ark, Sadness, Doughnut, Taurus, Dedictaion to Poets and Writers

And Ornette didn't join Nappy Allen's band.

a certain European saxophonist and mega-collector also has copies. 

[Daniel A]

This guy? 

[JSngry]

Is that Mr. Kullhammer?

[Daniel A]

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Is that Mr. Kullhammer?

No; this is the only picture I could find that shows a part of Jonas' collection. He seems to be more of a CD guy:

(the first picture is from the collection of Mats Gustafson) 

 

[clifford_thornton]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Is that Mr. Kullhammer?

It's Mats Gustafsson, and yes, that's the collector I'm thinking of.

[JSngry]

Is he rich or did he get really lucky?

[bertrand]

3 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

It's Mats Gustafsson, and yes, that's the collector I'm thinking of.

Is he willing to make MP3s so we can hear the music?

PS: What's up with the LP on the floor? Hopefully it is Kenny G.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by bertrand

[clifford_thornton]

Visit him in Nickelsdorf and he'll play them for ya. 

[Daniel A]

8 hours ago, JSngry said:

Is he rich or did he get really lucky?

I don't know how much a free jazz saxophone gig pays these days, but I am sure it helped that he started to hunt for free jazz on LP at the age of 12 and has apparently spent most of his spare time doing so ever since. He is also known to have travelled across Europe to pay for rare records he couldn't afford by giving a private concert to the seller. Once, he also entered into a recording contract with a store/label as payment for a rare record.

[mjazzg]

6 hours ago, bertrand said:

 

PS: What's up with the LP on the floor? Hopefully it is Kenny G.

 

Doubt it, they are brothers in G, after all

[clifford_thornton]

6 hours ago, Daniel A said:

I don't know how much a free jazz saxophone gig pays these days, but I am sure it helped that he started to hunt for free jazz on LP at the age of 12 and has apparently spent most of his spare time doing so ever since. He is also known to have travelled across Europe to pay for rare records he couldn't afford by giving a private concert to the seller. Once, he also entered into a recording contract with a store/label as payment for a rare record.

Yes, NoBusiness in Lithuania for a pristine original copy of Howard Riley's Discussions LP. 

[Guy Berger]

On 12/27/2021 at 11:17 PM, Gheorghe said:

Hello ! 

About BN´s being more conservative or not: I thought because you always still have parts of straight ahead groove with a walking bass. I noticed this on "Empty Foxhole" on the first tune "Good Old Days", on the 2  Golden Circle and on other occasions. 

Ornette’s music is full of walking basslines!  He had Charlie Haden, one of the GOAT “walkers”, in his band!

[Eric]

Thought this might of interest to some here (claims/appears to be an ESP test pressing on eBay):

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175087032766?hash=item28c40019be:g:Ra8AAOSwbM9hzN-6

[Gheorghe]

7 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

Ornette’s music is full of walking basslines!  He had Charlie Haden, one of the GOAT “walkers”, in his band!

Yes, I noticed that in the early bands. When I was just a starter to dig into so called "Free Jazz" I was quite astonished that even on the Atlantic Album "Free Jazz" with the double quartet there is mostly walking bass. 
But soon I could purchase the two Impulse albums "Crisis" and "Ornette at 12" and they are much more advanced, they have a more "free" approach. And this was in the late 60´s.