ORNETTE COLEMAN - ROUND TRIP: ORNETTE COLEMAN ON BLUE NOTE

[clifford_thornton]

Oh, great news! Thanks for that.

They're actually Plastylite test pressings rather than acetates, and they did get to the stage of nearly being released until the ESP fiasco scuttled it.

[B. Clugston]

On 9/18/2024 at 9:17 AM, colinmce said:

Lots of discussion about the Blue Note version of Town Hall, and the status of the acetates. Both LPs have been posted in full on YouTube. This is record 1, side A. The other 3 sides can be found on the account page:

 

Wow, great to finally hear that. Some top-notch Ornette and wonderful to finally hear Izenson's "Taurus." Too bad ESP got involved as that would have been a fine pair of LPs. "Story Teller" got named "Doughnut" on the ESP release, while "Doughnut" matches up with the tune recorded as "Doughnuts" elsewhere.

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, Ornette brought the tape to Stollman to have distortion removed from "Sadness," and Stollman put it out (fixed), thus quashing the Blue Note. That is the story I was told by Stollman, anyway.

[JSngry]

None of which precludes there being some kind of tape copy stashed away in some unmarked corner somewhere? 

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, correct. But Ornette brought only one tape to ESP, not both (or all three, who knows?), so what was on that reel was what they released.

Stollman was acting as Ornette's lawyer/representative at that time, and I think the LP release was in lieu of payment for services rendered to Coleman. Probably made more money with the record than he would've gotten in legal fees anyway.

[JSngry]

Blue Note had some kind of tape(s) long/deep enough to get test pressings made. Did they give those back to Ornette? Probably not?

[clifford_thornton]

no idea. I would think they would've been cataloged when Cuscuna was doing his research, but I don't know.

[hbbfam]

I find the fact that this is only available on vinyl reprehensible.

[JSngry]

 

44 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

no idea. I would think they would've been cataloged when Cuscuna was doing his research, but I don't know.

Like the OG Rollins VV tapes?

Just sayin', cataloguing only works for what's already found....

...

[clifford_thornton]

True!

[bertrand]

So people can make Mp3s from the YouTube versions, right?

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, though I doubt it would be of a releasable quality.

[Chuck Nessa]

8 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Yeah, though I doubt it would be of a releasable quality.

That doesn't stop some folks.

[Gheorghe]

I like both the ESP album and the BN albums. I don´t remember exactly what it was. I think I have :

- Golden Circle Vol. I, Vol. II
- Empty Foxhole (actually my FIRST LP of Ornette Coleman !) 
- Love Cry
- New York is Now 

- and of course the one where he is a sideman on tp for Jackie McLean....

It´s strange that the only Coleman other than "Dancing in the Head" that I saw then, was the Empty Foxhole. 
 

I´m more interested in the music itself then if Townhall was published by BN or ESP, the music counts that´s all.....

 

I think, that BN had certain demands, that indifferent how far they might go out they still had to get points where they just swing straight ahead. 
So on each Ornette Coleman LP for BN there is a lot of straight ahead swing, maybe Alfred Lion thought otherwise it would not sell.
And I must admit myself, that at the time I got into Free Jazz, those passages where they all "swing" helped me to find a line to the whole further out stuff. 
This happens with Mingus, it happened with all Free Jazzers who came after him. At least at the beginning. 
Now if I listen to a so called "Free Jazz album" I find my way also without a swing line in it...
 

Compare the BN´s with the Impulse records Ornette made about the same time (Crisis and Ornette at 12) which are more fare out than the swinging BN´s .
 

[bertrand]

On 9/19/2024 at 11:45 PM, clifford_thornton said:

Yeah, though I doubt it would be of a releasable quality.

I just want them to listen to at home. I would be happy to buy an official release, but it does not look like that is ever going to happen. Still not clear if the Master Tape still exists and who would have it.

[clifford_thornton]

I imagine now that the music is "out there" it will get bootlegged. It is too bad that Denardo has no interest, as I understand it, in pushing the archives of his father's music. Someone else will profit.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

30 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

I imagine now that the music is "out there" it will get bootlegged. It is too bad that Denardo has no interest, as I understand it, in pushing the archives of his father's music. Someone else will profit.

Denardo may be honoring his father's wishes, which is not a bad thing in my book.

[colinmce]

Could be, yeah, but I always felt like Ornette would benefit from a Bootleg Series-type program more than most.

[clifford_thornton]

Could be, but those wishes aren't always wise.

I know of at least one major figure in this music who wanted their entire archive to be destroyed upon their death, and am glad his heirs chose to keep that from happening.

[mhatta]

On 9/24/2024 at 1:14 AM, colinmce said:

Could be, yeah, but I always felt like Ornette would benefit from a Bootleg Series-type program more than most.

Heartily agree.  For example, I I sometimes dream of Ornette Coleman The Bootleg Series Vol. X: Skies of Americas because Ornette has performed Skies of America several times over the years with various orchestras, all different. Some have leaked as bootlegs.

[mjazzg]

1 hour ago, mhatta said:

Heartily agree.  For example, I I sometimes dream of Ornette Coleman The Bootleg Series Vol. X: Skies of Americas because Ornette has performed Skies of America several times over the years with various orchestras, all different. Some have leaked as bootlegs.

I saw one of those in London, fantastic experience 

[adh1907]

7 hours ago, mjazzg said:

I saw one of those in London, fantastic experience 

Would this have been in 1988? From rummaging around the internet, Ornette played Skies of America on 3 June that year with the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and Prime Time, though if it’s the concert I remember, they played separate sets. The opening set was Evan Parker solo. I recall lots of circular breathing. And all of it was fantastic too! 
 

Anthony

Edited September 25 by adh1907

[John L]

I have been really enjoying the expanded Town Hall Concert since it was posted on YouTube.  

I also recently saw a quote by A.B. Spellman to the effect that "Blues Misused" from this concert is one of Ornette Coleman's greatest performances.  Fate would have it that this track was not included on the planned Blue Note album that we now have on YouTube.   Ornette did record it later as a track for Who's Crazy.  But I would be interested to hear the Town Hall version that includes piano, guitar, and electric bass.  

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, it must've been recorded but whether the tapes with the remainder of the set survive is anyone's guess.