Cannonball's Place In The Pantheon

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

I like the kid. It's part of the vibe.

Same with Buddy Rich's daughter singing "The Beat Goes On."  Aging jazz musicians turning on and tuning in to the moods and vibrations of today!

[BFrank]

Nat has been sorely under-recognized, too

[Big Beat Steve]

On 2.12.2021 at 7:46 AM, Guy Berger said:

Cannonball was not as influential as Sonny as a player, but more influential than Sonny as a bandleader

Not to forget that he was active in the session producing and A&R (of sorts) field for a time too. Browsing through period jazz documents, I was amazed at how (relatively) often the name of Cannonball Adderley came up in the context of getting this or that recording session off the ground. So clearly he could connect in more ways than one and was respected on several levels. Are there very many truly greats among the jazz musicians who can claim this kind of accomplishments on BOTH sides of the mike?

[BillF]

26 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Not to forget that he was active in the session producing and A&R (of sorts) field for a time too. Browsing through period jazz documents, I was amazed at how (relatively) often the name of Cannonball Adderley came up in the context of getting this or that recording session off the ground. So clearly he could connect in more ways than one and was respected on several levels. Are there very many truly greats among the jazz musicians who can claim this kind of accomplishments on BOTH sides of the mike?

Yes. Without Cannonball, would we ever have got to hear Wes?

[jazzbo]

Very good point to recognize his contributions as producer and A&R man.

And I for one enjoy Nat's son's singing and playing and writing I have heard.

[Shrdlu]

Wonderful alto saxophone player. Never played badly. And he was always in tune - not a given with that instrument; some of the alto players on Blue Note sessions were way off.

I love the Savoy and Riverside sessions on which he appeared. My favorite of his groups is the sextet with Yusef Lateef, who added some needed spark to the sessions.

And though Cannonball was not an innovator like Trane, he didn't fall apart in anguish like Rollins, who was a mental case in my opinion.

Five stars for Cannonball. Sad that he died so young.

[BillF]

21 hours ago, Shrdlu said:

Wonderful alto saxophone player. Never played badly. And he was always in tune - not a given with that instrument; some of the alto players on Blue Note sessions were way off.

 

Interesting! To my non-musician's ear Gigi Gryce so often sounded sharp.

Edited December 6, 2021 by BillF

[Teasing the Korean]

I didn't get into jazz until I was about 13, but I knew Cannonball's name from the time I was able to read.

Why?

Because I saw all of his Capitol albums on inner sleeves of Beatles and Beach Boys albums.  

It's funny how you form opinions at a young age that you have a hard time shaking.  I assume that Cannonball has an important place in the pantheon because he was cool enough to be on the Beatles' and Beach Boys' label.  This is 8-year-old TTK speaking, not the older, wiser TTK with whom you typically interact.

Also worth noting is how many people have gotten into Cannonball because of the David Axelrod angle.  I have all those Capitol albums equally for the Adderleys, Zawinul, and Axelrod.  

My favorite Capitol Adderley Axelrod albums are the one with lengthy orchestral compositions, and the brilliant Soul Zodiac.

And then there is this killer Juju Orchestra track that samples Adderley.

 

[BFrank]

I always liked this album that Cannonball produced, although the title makes no sense

[danasgoodstuff]

14 hours ago, BFrank said:

I always liked this album that Cannonball produced, although the title makes no sense

It's a tribute to cannonball that it got made, when without his involvement it probably wouldn't have.  whether that makes sense to you or not, it is a fine album.

[Teasing the Korean]

I am in the mood for some Bill Evans, so I popped in a random disc from the Riverside box set.

And there was Cannonball.

I had forgotten that they included the Cannonball Riverside album with Bill Evans in this box.  

[Guy Berger]

4 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I am in the mood for some Bill Evans, so I popped in a random disc from the Riverside box set.

And there was Cannonball.

I had forgotten that they included the Cannonball Riverside album with Bill Evans in this box.  

I don’t think Cannonball and Evans were a great combo.  Too much light sweetness

[BFrank]

9 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

It's a tribute to cannonball that it got made, when without his involvement it probably wouldn't have.  whether that makes sense to you or not, it is a fine album.

It's a great album!

[danasgoodstuff]

1 minute ago, BFrank said:

It's a great album!

totally agree

[gmonahan]

On 12/5/2021 at 3:59 AM, jazzbo said:

Very good point to recognize his contributions as producer and A&R man.

And I for one enjoy Nat's son's singing and playing and writing I have heard.

Cannonball did the liners for a few of the original Vee Jay hard bop records which I think he might have produced. And of course, he did a lot of work for Riverside. He really was active on that score.

I suggested that Mosaic do a Cannonball Capitol set, but I guess it would be too big.

 

 

gregmo

[BFrank]

8 hours ago, gmonahan said:

Cannonball did the liners for a few of the original Vee Jay hard bop records which I think he might have produced. And of course, he did a lot of work for Riverside. He really was active on that score.

I suggested that Mosaic do a Cannonball Capitol set, but I guess it would be too big.

 

 

gregmo

I bet there's a lot of unreleased live stuff that Mosaic could put together into a nice box

[Gheorghe]

On 6.12.2021 at 10:21 PM, danasgoodstuff said:

It's a tribute to cannonball that it got made, when without his involvement it probably wouldn't have.  whether that makes sense to you or not, it is a fine album.

Is much as I remember it was released as late as in 1979. 

But I´m disappointed there is no recording of Bud with the Adderly Brothers. In Francis Paudras´ book is a photo of the Adderly Brothers on stage with Bud, probably in Denmark

[Peter Friedman]

With all this discussion of Cannonball's place in the Jazz Pantheon, there has been no mention of Jackie McLean?

McLean lived during that same time period, and to my ears was the major jazz alto player. I very much liked much of Cannonball's playing as well as that of a number of other jazz alto saxophone player who were on the scene at that time.

But  it was Jackie McLean who was my personal favorite.  

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

With all this discussion of Cannonball's place in the Jazz Pantheon, there has been no mention of Jackie McLean?

McLean lived during that same time period, and to my ears was the major jazz alto player. I very much liked much of Cannonball's playing as well as that of a number of other jazz alto saxophone player who were on the scene at that time.

But  it was Jackie McLean who was my personal favorite.  

Good point.

I see McLean as the inverse situation to Adderley: very little name recognition, but his particular albums are much praised, to the extent of making it into jazz 101 texts like Gioia's, and his playing clearly influenced the next gen.

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

With all this discussion of Cannonball's place in the Jazz Pantheon, there has been no mention of Jackie McLean?

Should there be? I mean, Jackie's place is secure, isn't it? Does anybody who is serious about this kind of music not recognize that Jackie was, and always will be, an incredibly personal player of maximum significance?

People who don't are either clowns, fools, and/or just uneducated about the subject. Or else their priorities lie elsewhere, for whatever reasons. But I'm kinda like, life is short, so leave them be to go their own way into their own world and let's hope nobody gets hurt in the end.

[Dan Gould]

I think it depends on the definition of "pantheon".

For penetration into the wider culture and influence there you got to go with Cannonball first, IMHO.

But plenty of room for both ... in fact after those two, isn't it almost fair to say that from each sprung a distinct river/brook of descendants, with the more straightahead coming from Cannonball (think Vincent Herring and his time playing with Nat) and the more avant coming from Jackie and his HAAG BNs?

[JSngry]

It's all out of Bird (and by extension Pres). Explicit influence, anyway. Different shadings, of course, but Bird is the source.

Even Ornette, Jimmy Lyons, Bird. Not until you get to AACM that there's a clear break, at least in terms of express phraseology.

[HutchFan]

I think Jackie gets more love than Cannonball from the "critical establishment."  But Cannonball was (is?) more well-known.

Both are supreme artists of the first order, IMO.  They just did different things, had different sorts of appeal.

 

15 minutes ago, JSngry said:

It's all out of Bird (and by extension Pres). Explicit influence, anyway. Different shadings, of course, but Bird is the source.

Even Ornette, Jimmy Lyons, Bird. Not until you get to AACM that there's a clear break, at least in terms of express phraseology.

And Dolphy too.  That is, Dolphy is another "child of Bird" who took Parker's vocabulary and did something unique and personal with it.

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by HutchFan

[felser]

22 hours ago, gmonahan said:

I suggested that Mosaic do a Cannonball Capitol set, but I guess it would be too big.

There are a number of sub-boxes they could have done (live, sextet, large groups, 70's, etc.).  I suggested the same to Cherry Red records in the UK.  They showed some interest at first, but then went crickets.  

[mikeweil]

Fantasy might have done a Cannonball box set, but he had taken half of his Riverside albums to Capitol, his next label, who didn't take much care to keep them in print. It was Orrin Keepnews who reissued all of them on his Landmark label, some with bonus tracks. The others were all reissued as Original Jazz Classics. 

The EmArcy albums were all on CD but one:

Edited December 10, 2021 by mikeweil