Cannonball's Place In The Pantheon

[Rabshakeh]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Another thing I've heard along the same lines was that Cannonball never faltered. sometimes, like on "Milestones" and KOB, he might be unsure about how to lock into the groove, but his fingers never failed him. 

When I listen to the tune Milestones on the original album, I hear a moment of panic exchanged between Kelly and Adderley, I think (if I recall correctly) around the time Adderley enters. Am I guessing that I'm not the only one? 

[JSngry]

Not at all. I think that the whole Miles/Modal thing had Cannonball off balace in terms of phrasing and cadences, like, he kep expecting there to be a landing point where there usually would be one and OOPS, not, not yet.

He was in on Ground Zero, and as ready for it as Trane was, I think Cannonball was that much NOT ready.

He figured it out, though. The great ones always do.

[Guy Berger]

On 11/30/2021 at 1:43 PM, Milestones said:

Influence...a tricky thing for sure. But going back to the very first post, there is the business of Trane and Sonny always in the conversation, prominent in all the books--but Cannonball not so much.

But I give Cannonball credit for doing what the "greats" do, which is to stretch.  I'm thinking of the Zawinul influence and the move toward fusion.

Cannonball was not as influential as Sonny as a player, but more influential than Sonny as a bandleader

[BillF]

41 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

Cannonball was not as influential as Sonny as a player, but more influential than Sonny as a bandleader

Yes, as an active jazz listener around 1960 I recall that Cannonball was a great popularizer and would draw in people - as would Jimmy Smith - who would never listen to Sonny, and certainly not to Bird.

[sidewinder]

One of the earliest memories of Cannonball sadly was the ‘flash’ tribute put out by Peter Clayton on his Sunday BBC radio show on the weekend of his sudden death.

[JSngry]

4 hours ago, sidewinder said:

One of the earliest memories of Cannonball sadly was the ‘flash’ tribute put out by Peter Clayton on his Sunday BBC radio show on the weekend of his sudden death.

I remember where I was when the news came on that he had died - working a summer job in the East Texas oil field. The crew truck had some station on that had Mutual News at the top of every error, and Cannonball's death was announced, not as a lead story, but towards the end. He had that level of cultural penetration.

I also remember sonny Stitt's passing being noted on Entertainment Tonight. Talk about unexpected....

[Dub Modal]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I remember where I was when the news came on that he had died - working a summer job in the East Texas oil field. The crew truck had some station on that had Mutual News at the top of every error, and Cannonball's death was announced, not as a lead story, but towards the end. He had that level of cultural penetration.

I also remember sonny Stitt's passing being noted on Entertainment Tonight. Talk about unexpected....

I remember Milt Jackson got a short profile by Peter Jennings and ABC news when he passed. I wasn't a jazz fan at the time but I still remember because it was the first time I'd seen anyone play vibes like that. 

[medjuck]

On 12/1/2021 at 11:40 AM, JSngry said:

Not at all. I think that the whole Miles/Modal thing had Cannonball off balace in terms of phrasing and cadences, like, he kep expecting there to be a landing point where there usually would be one and OOPS, not, not yet.

He was in on Ground Zero, and as ready for it as Trane was, I think Cannonball was that much NOT ready.

He figured it out, though. The great ones always do.

On 12/1/2021 at 11:40 AM, JSngry said:

Not at all. I think that the whole Miles/Modal thing had Cannonball off balace in terms of phrasing and cadences, like, he kep expecting there to be a landing point where there usually would be one and OOPS, not, not yet.

He was in on Ground Zero, and as ready for it as Trane was, I think Cannonball was that much NOT ready.

He figured it out, though. The great ones always do.

I don't hear that except on the "alternate take".  which I don't think was on the original Lp. I also like that on that alternate (take 2, I think, take 3 being the one originally issued ) Miles begins to play "Put Your Little Foot In" which becomes "Fran Dance"  on their next studio date. 

[BFrank]

I've been wondering for years why no one has put out any kind of retrospective (or "complete") box of anything by Cannonball. Since he made his mark on multiple labels, you'd think at least one of them would have done it. A lot of "lesser" players have certainly been honored with them.

Some of my favorite Cannonball albums are his 60s-era live disks. Tons of energy and personality jump out of the speakers of each one!

[felser]

16 hours ago, BFrank said:

I've been wondering for years why no one has put out any kind of retrospective (or "complete") box of anything by Cannonball. Since he made his mark on multiple labels, you'd think at least one of them would have done it. A lot of "lesser" players have certainly been honored with them.

Some of my favorite Cannonball albums are his 60s-era live disks. Tons of energy and personality jump out of the speakers of each one!

I strongly agree with everything you are saying here.

[JSngry]

Didn't Verve do the Emarcy albums?

[felser]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Didn't Verve do the Emarcy albums?

Did a nice 2 discussion set of the small group albums and a twofer of the larger groups.  And Savoy had the Summer of 55 set with him and Nat.  But Riverside and Capitol, who should have been the major players, did nothing.  Nor did Milestone.

 

[Milestones]

Not sure that Capitol is into the single-artist retrospective thing at all.

And it seems to me that Capitol was never that big on jazz.  Other than Adderley, what jazz artists have done a serious record run on the label?

 

[Larry Kart]

George Shearing recorded many albums for Capitol, but maybe you don't think of him as a jazz artist. Indeed, many of Shearing's albums were so-called mood music, but some were not.

[Milestones]

Yeah, they seemed more into pop vocals and easy listening.  And some fine stuff, especially from Nat King Cole and Frank Sinatra.  But as far as jazz goes...

Even Cannonball did a few records with vocalists and large ensembles.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

On 11/30/2021 at 5:40 AM, Rabshakeh said:

I'm interested to know where other forum members might place Cannonball Adderley in their personal pantheons of saxophone Greats.

Did any other saxophone Great release an album with a repeated photo of him/herself in a track suit, carrying his/her massive frame down a flight of steps?  I don't think so. This alone places Cannonball in his own pantheon.  

And this is Cannonball's greatest album, also, because of the cover art.  

Hey hey hey...

[Guy Berger]

50 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

George Shearing recorded many albums for Capitol, but maybe you don't think of him as a jazz artist. Indeed, many of Shearing's albums were so-called mood music, but some were not.

Stan Kenton!

[BFrank]

2 hours ago, felser said:

Did a nice 2 discussion set of the small group albums and a twofer of the larger groups.  And Savoy had the Summer of 55 set with him and Nat.  But Riverside and Capitol, who should have been the major players, did nothing.  Nor did Milestone.

 

I remember those EmArcy sets. That was a nice series - also Sarah Vaughan, Clifford Brown, etc

[Rabshakeh]

5 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Did any other saxophone Great release an album with a repeated photo of him/herself in a track suit, carrying his/her massive frame down a flight of steps?  I don't think so. This alone places Cannonball in his own pantheon.  

And this is Cannonball's greatest album, also, because of the cover art.  

Hey hey hey...

This is true. I have always felt something was missing with the legacy of John Coltrane in particular, and now I can place it.

[Teasing the Korean]

14 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

George Shearing recorded many albums for Capitol, but maybe you don't think of him as a jazz artist. Indeed, many of Shearing's albums were so-called mood music, but some were not.

We can only imagine what Coltrane may have accomplished if he had gained a lot of weight, bought a 70s track suit, and allowed a kid to sing on one of his albums.  

[JSngry]

As it is, he gained a lot of weight, bought a 60s tux, and allowed his wife to play on a lot of his albums 

60s version of that 70s thing.

[felser]

45 minutes ago, JSngry said:

As it is, he gained a lot of weight, bought a 60s tux, and allowed his wife to play on a lot of his albums 

60s version of that 70s thing.

The wife played piano a lot better than the kid sang.  

[Rabshakeh]

I like the kid. It's part of the vibe.

[JSngry]

The wife was an adult. The kid was a kid. And btw, look up Nat Adderley, Jr. The kid did alright for himself.

[mjazzg]