Simon Weil Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 I'm a long-term hater of Wynton - and my criticism of him has focused around his treatment of women. I wrote a couple of articles about that 20 and 14 years ago. It has seemed blindingly obvious to me that he's a sexist and gets away with it. That's in the past. What is current is the flow of anti-sexist drive in the wider culture right now. I'm looking at Wynton - and specifically him as a sort of figure-head for Jazz in the wider culture - and going "This is an accident waiting to happen".
Teasing the Korean Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 1:06 PM, Simon Weil said: I'm a long-term hater of Wynton - and my criticism of him has focused around his treatment of women. I wrote a couple of articles about that 20 and 14 years ago. It has seemed blindingly obvious to me that he's a sexist and gets away with it. That's in the past. What is current is the flow of anti-sexist drive in the wider culture right now. I'm looking at Wynton - and specifically him as a sort of figure-head for Jazz in the wider culture - and going "This is an accident waiting to happen". Expand Might you provide some context?
Rooster_Ties Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) On 10/31/2021 at 1:06 PM, Simon Weil said: …and going "This is an accident waiting to happen". Expand I’ll just say ‘perhaps’ with a very lowercase ‘p’. But unless there’s some actual transgressive behavior involving specific other people (bringing actual accusations) that just isn’t publicly known about (and I’m absolutely assuming there isn’t, because Wynton seems to me to probably ok enough as far as all that goes), then this is simply the case of another older, sexist guy — of which there are millions. At 60, he’s simply part of a generation that was guilty of sexism, and a generation that decreasingly matters as much any more. (I’m only 8 years younger than him, and I feel like people my age matter less and less all the time). Hard to imagine anyone trying to single out Wynton, unless there are numerous smoking guns — a dozens emails, etc… It would take a LOT more than simple sexism to be even remotely newsworthy these days. Edited October 31, 2021 by Rooster_Ties
Simon Weil Posted October 31, 2021 Author Report Posted October 31, 2021 The two articles I had suggested (2001) that the lack of women in his band was down to sexism and (2007) that he had a deep-seated negative view of women that required them to be "offstage". On 10/31/2021 at 2:22 PM, Teasing the Korean said: Might you provide some context? Expand
Guy Berger Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) Lack of women in the LCJO was still an issue as of 2018: Link “To be fair” this isn’t a problem limited to LCJO… sexism is still pervasive in jazz culture Edited October 31, 2021 by Guy Berger
Simon Weil Posted October 31, 2021 Author Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 2:46 PM, Rooster_Ties said: I’ll just say ‘perhaps’ with a very lowercase ‘p’. But unless there’s some actual transgressive behavior involving specific other people (bringing actual accusations) that just isn’t publicly known about (and I’m absolutely assuming there isn’t, because Wynton seems to me to probably ok enough as far as all that goes), then this is simply the case of another older, sexist guy — of which there are millions. At 60, he’s simply part of a generation that was guilty of sexism, and a generation that decreasingly matters as much any more. (I’m only 8 years younger than him, and I feel like people my age matter less and less all the time). Hard to imagine anyone trying to single out Wynton, unless there are numerous smoking guns — a dozens emails, etc… It would take a LOT more than simple sexism to be even remotely newsworthy these days. Expand This is hard for me - It seems to me there might easily be women out there. I did have one engagement which suggested to me that the specific woman might have had an experience along those lines.
Rooster_Ties Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) On 10/31/2021 at 2:53 PM, Simon Weil said: This is hard for me - It seems to me there might easily be women out there. I did have one engagement which suggested to me that the specific woman might have had an experience along those lines. Expand IMHO, this isn’t the place to air all that — and personally I’d rather keep the Organissimo board out of the business of such speculation. I’m sure a mod or two can weigh in. Our gracious host doesn’t need to have the name of this board attached to any further legs such suggestions might lead to. IMHO, of course. Not trying to be protective of bad actors, nor coming down too hard on you Simon (honestly). But vaguer than vague third-person hearsay about real people probably isn’t good for a public discussion board such as ours. On Reddit or something akin to Usenet forums would be one thing, but let’s not go there here, thank you very much. Edited October 31, 2021 by Rooster_Ties
Guy Berger Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 3:07 PM, Rooster_Ties said: IMHO, this isn’t the place to air all that — and personally I’d rather keep the Organissimo board out of the business of such speculation. I’m sure a mod or two can weigh in. Our gracious host doesn’t need to have the name of this board attached to any further legs such suggestions might lead to. IMHO, of course. Not trying to be protective of bad actors, nor coming down too hard on you Simon (honestly). But vaguer than vague third-person hearsay about real people probably isn’t good for a public discussion board such as ours. Reddit or something akin to Usenet forums would be one thing, but let’s not go there here. IMHO. Expand Agreed
Mark Stryker Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) The Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra has had a woman in the saxophone section for a couple of years now -- Camille Thurman plays tenor and also sings. Via Twitter I've seen pictures of the band on its current tour in Eastern Europe and while I don't see Camille, I do see another woman playing alto whom I don't recognize. If you want to explore institutional sexism at J@LC, you are of course free to do so and mount whatever evidence you like, You are also of course free to explore sexual harassment in the jazz world too -- the recent rather complicated case of Steve Coleman suggests a number of potent threads. Misogyny, sexism, and harassment are real issues in and out of jazz. BUT dropping speculative hints and conjecture on this site, with not a shred of evidence, that Wynton (or ANYONE) has engaged in behavior that crosses the line into physical/mental abuse or sexual harassment is bullshit. It's out of bounds and should be removed by a moderator. Edited October 31, 2021 by Mark Stryker
Rooster_Ties Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 3:11 PM, Mark Stryker said: The Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra has had a woman in the saxophone section for a couple of years now -- Camille Thurman plays tenor and also sings. Via Twitter I've seen pictures of the band on its current tour in Eastern Europe and while I don't see Camille, I do see another woman who I don't recognize. If you want to explore institutional sexism at J@LC, you are of course free to do so and mount whatever evidence you like, You are also of course free to explore sexual harassment in the jazz world too -- the recent rather complicated case of Steve Coleman suggests a number of potent threads. Misogyny, sexism, and harassment are real issue in and out of jazz. BUT dropping speculative hints and conjecture on this site, with not a shred of evidence, that Wynton (or ANYONE) has engaged in behavior that crosses the line into physical/mental abuse or sexual harassment is bullshit. It's out of bounds and should be removed by a moderator. Expand Agreed
Simon Weil Posted October 31, 2021 Author Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) My intent has simply been to draw attention to this issue. If people don't want to confront it that's up to them. It seems, to me, akin to sticking your head in the sand when there's a wave coming up the beach. Edited October 31, 2021 by Simon Weil
Mark Stryker Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) On 10/31/2021 at 3:29 PM, Simon Weil said: My intent has simply been to draw attention to this issue. If people don't want to confront it that's up to them. It seems, to me, akin, to sticking your head in the sand when there's a wave coming up the beach. Expand Nobody is sticking their head in the sand. You wanna talk Wynton and sexism? Fine. You wanna coyly suggest that ANYONE is guilty of abuse or harassment ("might easily be women out there"; "I did have one engagement which suggested") without a shred of evidence? Not fine. Edited October 31, 2021 by Mark Stryker
Simon Weil Posted October 31, 2021 Author Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 3:34 PM, Mark Stryker said: Nobody is sticking their head in the sand. You wanna talk Wynton and sexism? Fine. You want to coyly accuse ANYONE of abuse or harassment ("might easily be women out there"; "I did have one engagement which suggested")? Not fine. Expand I was being honest. Strangely.
Rooster_Ties Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) On 10/31/2021 at 3:29 PM, Simon Weil said: My intent has simply been to draw attention to this issue. If people don't want to confront it that's up to them. It seems, to me, akin to sticking your head in the sand when there's a wave coming up the beach. Expand This just isn’t the place for vague charges against specific individuals. One can argue whether other places are (or aren’t) appropriate for that — but this is definitely NOT the forum for it. Edited October 31, 2021 by Rooster_Ties
Big Beat Steve Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 3:29 PM, Simon Weil said: Expand On 10/31/2021 at 3:29 PM, Simon Weil said: ... when there's a wave coming up the beach. Expand I have no horse in this race (of whether to discuss this at all), but trying to focus the posts I've read here, I think what it boils down to is that if you are sure "there's a wave coming up the beach", then name what the wave is made up of, what beach it is coming from, and where you concretely saw that particular wave. If you cannot or won't provide the hard evidence of the wave then I am afraid the others have a huge point. Speculative insinuations are not the way to go. They might backfire.
Simon Weil Posted October 31, 2021 Author Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 2:46 PM, Rooster_Ties said: I’m absolutely assuming there isn’t, because Wynton seems to me to probably ok enough as far as all that goes Expand My post was an answer to that. I thought "well, I don't know that it's so absolutely clear - at least not in my mind".
Rooster_Ties Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) On 10/31/2021 at 3:36 PM, Simon Weil said: I was being honest. Strangely. Expand I’m not questioning your honesty, but this just isn’t the place for vague third-hand charges against specific individuals. Edited October 31, 2021 by Rooster_Ties
Simon Weil Posted October 31, 2021 Author Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 3:50 PM, Rooster_Ties said: I’m not questioning your honesty, but this just isn’t the place for vague third-hand charges against specific individuals. Expand Can't you see your post put me in a box? Either I replied to it honestly with as much as I could say from my experience or I left you (and others) with what I thought might be a false sense of security.
JSngry Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 Facts only, please. And facts attached to specific parties. Parties - that's plural, ok?
Simon Weil Posted October 31, 2021 Author Report Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) It really is something else I'm talking about - I mean it's to do with what gets people to take an interest in specific facts at a specific time. That is, for years, I've thought that when (and I think it's when) the anti-sexist tide hits Jazz, Wynton is a terrible guy to have in place as its figurehead. Edited October 31, 2021 by Simon Weil
JSngry Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 Duly noted, place your bets and enjoy the movie.
Dan Gould Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 Why anyone would waste time engaging with a shit-stirrer like the OP is completely beyond me. And Tom is right, garbage allegations/suggestions/imaginings do not belong on this site, unless and until there is a "there" there.
Rooster_Ties Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 4:10 PM, JSngry said: Duly noted, place your bets and enjoy the movie. Expand Can someone delete this thread entirely by tomorrow? A little discussion here for several hours (even a few hours more) probably won’t hurt anything — but these sorts of factless charges shouldn’t be allowed to linger, not even as a locked thread. That would be much appreciated.
Pim Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 Yeah this thread should be removed and to be honest: you should be the one to remove it Simon.
BillF Posted October 31, 2021 Report Posted October 31, 2021 On 10/31/2021 at 4:30 PM, Rooster_Ties said: Can someone delete this thread entirely by tomorrow? Expand With the law of defamation in mind I urge you to do it as soon as possible, Jim. Oh, and by the way, what percentage female membership do we have on the board?
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