V.S.O.P. Quintet-Historical importance

[Gheorghe]

On 1.10.2021 at 11:12 PM, Rooster_Ties said:

I think of all three of those Herbie-Ron-Tony trio albums from 1977 and 1982 — as being kinda-sorta “acoustic fusion” music for piano trio.  Not every last track, but the majority of them seem semi-informed by Herbie’s fusion work.

Talking about two released under Herbie’s name in ‘77 & ‘82 — and the third one is under Ron’s name (also from ‘77, exact same recording date as the Herbie date.)

Part of it is the sound of Ron’s direct pickup (having a longer sustain than a naturally mic’ed upright) — but I swear it’s not just the way the bass was recorded that makes those dates seem like “acoustic fusion” to me.

Agreed !

And I love Ron´s bass sound from those 70´s recordings, also very present on let´s say "Baker and Mulligan at Carnegie Hall 74", something I mostly bought after hearing it in the famous club "Jazz by Freddie" where the spinned the best records when they didn´t have a day with live music. Many albums I bought after I heard them there. In this way I heard it and said "wow, the bass" and bought it.

Also very much beloved from guys of my generation: "Milestone All Stars" (Rollins, Tyner, Carter, Foster) 

Maybe acoustic purists don´t like that direct pickup, or the added contra C (an extension, first I thought it´s a 5 string bass fiddle), but that´s what it was: The sound of the so called acoustic bass in an era that was mostly electric. 

Ron made the bassfiddle "hip" for people who otherwise didn´t not else than "Fender Bass" or so. 

It was the bass sound of my generation, and those glissandi and double grips, it was fantastic. 

Later, in 2002 I was astonished to hear that album "Four Generations of Miles" (George Coleman, Mike Stern, Ron Carter, Jimmie Cobb) and Carter obviously had abandoned that "Carter Sound" and it sounded more in the old sound. 

Well, I love acoustic jazz, but maybe in the more louder approach, with mikes and pick-up on the bass, and half acoustic (Gibson) guitars,  so I can hear it and can get exited. The more "unplugged" chamber music with acoustic guitars and maybe no drums and so on, is not really my thing....

[bertrand]

Wow! The direct pickup sound from the 70s is much maligned, you are definitely in the minority opinion!

[Guy Berger]

On 10/5/2021 at 10:11 AM, Rooster_Ties said:

All Seeing Eye, surely, and the like.  Also, Herbie's playing on Tyrone Washington's unreleased 2nd BN leader date is very similar too, very percussive throughout.  LOVE that side of Herbie.  Comes out a bit on Grachan Moncur's Some Other Stuff.

I love his playing on Tony Williams’s Spring - the 3rd track has a delightfully abstract solo.

Also, not on Blue Note but his solo on “Mappo” (from Bennie Maupin’s The Jewel in the Lotus) is spectacular.

[Gheorghe]

13 hours ago, bertrand said:

Wow! The direct pickup sound from the 70s is much maligned, you are definitely in the minority opinion!

Well, yeah, but that was the sound I heard first. When I took up bass temporarly, I also had a pickup. But don´t forget, Ron Carter really had a strong sound and played the bass in the right manner, he didn´t have the strings so down, like let´s say Eddy Gomez had, playing that fast high note shit were you can´t produce a really bass sound. Mingus also used a pick up when I saw him, and last not least, many artists from the so called "acoustic" era like Dizzy and Rollins used Fender Bass. 
In the bass class of the Vienna Jazz Conservatory were only 2 or 3 who played acoustic, the rest was Fender....

[Peter Friedman]

12 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Well, yeah, but that was the sound I heard first. When I took up bass temporarly, I also had a pickup. But don´t forget, Ron Carter really had a strong sound and played the bass in the right manner, he didn´t have the strings so down, like let´s say Eddy Gomez had, playing that fast high note shit were you can´t produce a really bass sound. Mingus also used a pick up when I saw him, and last not least, many artists from the so called "acoustic" era like Dizzy and Rollins used Fender Bass. 
In the bass class of the Vienna Jazz Conservatory were only 2 or 3 who played acoustic, the rest was Fender....

That last sentence is sad news in my opinion.

[Gheorghe]

10 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

That last sentence is sad news in my opinion.

That´s not NEWS, that´s from the past. Now in our times if you have a gig and you need a bassist, you will find dozens of acoustic bassists. 

But in my case, and of course in the case of most of my generation (late 50´s born) from the point of view from NOW, the electric bass is what we saw and grew up or if we would have preferred an acoustic bass, we had to live with the situation. 

Many surviving top musicians (living legends)  had replaced the acoustic bass with an electric one, like Dizzy, Rollins and also the late 70´s Woody Herman Herd and dozenzs of others. Max Roach replaced acoustic with electric, when actually all others had gone back to acoustic......

And though, in addition to  the then developing stuff like electric Miles and Herbie´s Headhunters, me  and a lot of my friends  also had a love for be-bop, and if we couldn´t find an acoustic bass player  for a gig, we needed at least a good electric bass player. 

[Teasing the Korean]

7 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

But in my case, and of course in the case of most of my generation (late 50´s born) from the point of view from NOW, the electric bass is what we saw and grew up or if we would have preferred an acoustic bass, we had to live with the situation. 

I can't tell you how many times I saw the grand piano wheeled to the back of the stage so they could set up the Fender Rhodes.  Strange times, those.

[Joe]

Prompted by this thread (thanks!), I've gone back and re-auditioned several of the V.S.O.P. records. I have to confess I'm not digging them much. Too much sound and fury for me; I'm most disappointed in Tony Williams (TBH, my expectations of Carter and Hubbard were always pretty low going in). The quality of the recordings, which separates the players and deemphasizes the notion of an ensemble (to my ears anyway) doesn't help. Would curious to know which of these dates members here consider the best/most worthwhile.

[Rabshakeh]

56 minutes ago, Joe said:

 (TBH, my expectations of Carter and Hubbard were always pretty low going in). 

Why's that?

[Joe]

3 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Why's that?

I find both to be "fussy" players at this stage of their careers. And I've never been a huge fan of Carter's tone. Just my opinion/preference.

[Chuck Nessa]

4 hours ago, Joe said:

I find both to be "fussy" players at this stage of their careers. And I've never been a huge fan of Carter's tone. Just my opinion/preference.

I agree.

[Rooster_Ties]

45 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

I agree.

Me too.

[felser]

I certainly agree in the case of Carter.  Hubbard only compared to his monster earlier playing, I still found him quite enjoyable in that era.

[Gheorghe]

18 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I can't tell you how many times I saw the grand piano wheeled to the back of the stage so they could set up the Fender Rhodes.  Strange times, those.

Well, I must admit it was that way in my own case too (for 4 years). After some years of acoustic playing and learning very very much on stage, I was called to join a group, that went electric (jazz rock, funk, only own compositions of the members) and when we played live, grand pianos were wheeled back. It was the time with the most gigs, but eventually I got tired of it and went back to acoustic. But it was the times and the sounds of that period. And though my main love was acoustic jazz like Bird &Co, Hardbop, modal and some 60´s free jazz, I also listened very much to electric Miles, Hancock´s Headhunters, Billy Cobham-George Duke and so. I didn´t exclude certain movements of that time, the only thing that was not really my stuff was the more ECM-based, more silent acoustic.....

So I also witnessed the slow movements were fusion started to nod also to more straight ahead things, like the monster projekt of "CBS All Stars" from 1977 with players like George Duke, Billy Cobham meeting artists like Dexter, Stan Getz,  Woody Shaw, Maynard Ferguson  etc. Not necessarly for the quality of the music, but for the fact that there seemed to be room for a kind of "marriage" between electric and acoustic. From the same year: Jay Jay Johnson-Nat Adderly with a more electric rhythm section in Japan....

14 hours ago, Joe said:

Prompted by this thread (thanks!), I've gone back and re-auditioned several of the V.S.O.P. records. I have to confess I'm not digging them much. Too much sound and fury for me; I'm most disappointed in Tony Williams (TBH, my expectations of Carter and Hubbard were always pretty low going in). The quality of the recordings, which separates the players and deemphasizes the notion of an ensemble (to my ears anyway) doesn't help. Would curious to know which of these dates members here consider the best/most worthwhile.

Your are welcome, and I am very glad that this thread gets so many responds, different opinions. 

As I see, the majority of our great members who write so fantastic and inspiring statements, loves acoustic jazz more than electric, or more electric sounds of bassfiddles. 

As for your question: From VSOP I like most "Tempest at the Colosseum" and "Under the Sky". 

[Joe]

3 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Well, I must admit it was that way in my own case too (for 4 years). After some years of acoustic playing and learning very very much on stage, I was called to join a group, that went electric (jazz rock, funk, only own compositions of the members) and when we played live, grand pianos were wheeled back. It was the time with the most gigs, but eventually I got tired of it and went back to acoustic. But it was the times and the sounds of that period. And though my main love was acoustic jazz like Bird &Co, Hardbop, modal and some 60´s free jazz, I also listened very much to electric Miles, Hancock´s Headhunters, Billy Cobham-George Duke and so. I didn´t exclude certain movements of that time, the only thing that was not really my stuff was the more ECM-based, more silent acoustic.....

So I also witnessed the slow movements were fusion started to nod also to more straight ahead things, like the monster projekt of "CBS All Stars" from 1977 with players like George Duke, Billy Cobham meeting artists like Dexter, Stan Getz,  Woody Shaw, Maynard Ferguson  etc. Not necessarly for the quality of the music, but for the fact that there seemed to be room for a kind of "marriage" between electric and acoustic. From the same year: Jay Jay Johnson-Nat Adderly with a more electric rhythm section in Japan....

Your are welcome, and I am very glad that this thread gets so many responds, different opinions. 

As I see, the majority of our great members who write so fantastic and inspiring statements, loves acoustic jazz more than electric, or more electric sounds of bassfiddles. 

As for your question: From VSOP I like most "Tempest at the Colosseum" and "Under the Sky". 

Thanks! I sampled "Tempest at the Colosseum" again yesterday and agree the performances on that one are more cohesive. 

[Teasing the Korean]

5 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Well, I must admit it was that way in my own case too (for 4 years). After some years of acoustic playing and learning very very much on stage, I was called to join a group, that went electric (jazz rock, funk, only own compositions of the members) and when we played live, grand pianos were wheeled back. It was the time with the most gigs, but eventually I got tired of it and went back to acoustic. But it was the times and the sounds of that period. And though my main love was acoustic jazz like Bird &Co, Hardbop, modal and some 60´s free jazz, I also listened very much to electric Miles, Hancock´s Headhunters, Billy Cobham-George Duke and so. I didn´t exclude certain movements of that time, the only thing that was not really my stuff was the more ECM-based, more silent acoustic.....

So I also witnessed the slow movements were fusion started to nod also to more straight ahead things, like the monster projekt of "CBS All Stars" from 1977 with players like George Duke, Billy Cobham meeting artists like Dexter, Stan Getz,  Woody Shaw, Maynard Ferguson  etc. Not necessarly for the quality of the music, but for the fact that there seemed to be room for a kind of "marriage" between electric and acoustic. From the same year: Jay Jay Johnson-Nat Adderly with a more electric rhythm section in Japan....

It is interesting that the electric piano was created as a substitute for the piano, when there wasn't a real one, but then it took on its own aesthetic.  I have no issues with a Rhodes/Wurlitzer and electric bass if they are playing funkified rare groove kind of stuff; but at the time, I heard far too many attempts at straight-ahead jazz with electric bass and electric piano.  

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[Peter Friedman]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

It is interesting that the electric piano was created as a substitute for the piano, when there wasn't a real one, but then it took on its own aesthetic.  I have no issues with a Rhodes/Wurlitzer and electric bass if they are playing funkified rare groove kind of stuff; but at the time, I heard far too many attempts at straight-ahead jazz with electric bass and electric piano.  

 

I tend to very much agree.

Also have to say that I never cared for the V.S.O.P. band. 

[JSngry]

Different instruments with different sounds and different techniques of basic sound production cannot be played with a generic technique. Doing so ensures inadequate outcomes.

[Teasing the Korean]

45 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Different instruments with different sounds and different techniques of basic sound production cannot be played with a generic technique. Doing so ensures inadequate outcomes.

One of the reasons I generally prefer Wurlys over Rhodes is that you can play relatively fat, dissonant chords on a Wurly the same way you would on a piano, and everything comes out clearly.  Rhodes tend to have a very chimey sound, and fat chords on a Rhodes end up sounding like mud, at least on the Rhodes that I've played.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Wurlitzers kinda disappeared once Rhodes really took root, which was a shame afaic, those things were really funky sounding, especially with an expertly applied tremelo.

The Rhodes "mud" could be used to advantage, imo, but as far as trying to play it "like" an acoustic piano is a non-starter, imo. Might as well try to play a violin like a trumpet...

otoh, the 70s saw a lot of people adding effects and EQ to really get specilized/personal tones and textures out of it. Some were better than others, though...I knew one guy who went out of his way to make it sound like anything but a Rhodes, and I was like, you know what that sounds like,, neither fish nor fowl. And then you had the people shaving the tines to mico-tune the sucker...go with the mud, I say. Learn how that shit works, don't try to use it to imitate something it,s not. Tines are not strings, tines make it closer to a kalimba that a grand, nothing you do is going to change that.

And yet...Tommy Flanagan had a good touch on it playing straight-up bebop. Definitely the exception rather than the rule. I doubt he liked it, but he showed that touch is all.

 

[Peter Friedman]

29 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Wurlitzers kinda disappeared once Rhodes really took root, which was a shame afaic, those things were really funky sounding, especially with an expertly applied tremelo.

The Rhodes "mud" could be used to advantage, imo, but as far as trying to play it "like" an acoustic piano is a non-starter, imo. Might as well try to play a violin like a trumpet...

otoh, the 70s saw a lot of people adding effects and EQ to really get specilized/personal tones and textures out of it. Some were better than others, though...I knew one guy who went out of his way to make it sound like anything but a Rhodes, and I was like, you know what that sounds like,, neither fish nor fowl. And then you had the people shaving the tines to mico-tune the sucker...go with the mud, I say. Learn how that shit works, don't try to use it to imitate something it,s not. Tines are not strings, tines make it closer to a kalimba that a grand, nothing you do is going to change that.

And yet...Tommy Flanagan had a good touch on it playing straight-up bebop. Definitely the exception rather than the rule. I doubt he liked it, but he showed that touch is all.

 

Yes, this was an exception, though had he played acoustic piano throughout the end result would have been even better (imo).

[Rabshakeh]

What's the view on why Rhodes overtook Wurlitzers? 

22 hours ago, Joe said:

I find both to be "fussy" players at this stage of their careers. And I've never been a huge fan of Carter's tone. Just my opinion/preference.

17 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

I agree.

I perhaps don't know Hubbard's mid 70s work well enough, but I'm surprised to see him described as "fussy". He always seemed the weakest human link in VSOP (although I think that the overall stadium jazz vibe is worse than any one part) but fussy wasn't necessarily what comes to mind.

[JSngry]

22 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

What's the view on why Rhodes overtook Wurlitzers?

A few things...Rhodes was a Fender product, so, hey. Also, they were more roadworthy (relatively speaking), Then there's just the sound, for whatever reason, the Rhodes sound gained popular favor. But the old heads still remembered that Wurlitzer sound...

Rhodes ain't gonna do that.

[Rabshakeh]

30 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Rhodes ain't gonna do that.

Yeah. That crunch.

[Daniel A]

7 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

It is interesting that the electric piano was created as a substitute for the piano, when there wasn't a real one, but then it took on its own aesthetic.  I have no issues with a Rhodes/Wurlitzer and electric bass if they are playing funkified rare groove kind of stuff; but at the time, I heard far too many attempts at straight-ahead jazz with electric bass and electric piano.  

 

This is a personal preference, but I quite like the combination of acoustic bass and Rhodes, whereas I am less fond of acoustic piano together with electric bass. 

I do not have a problem with straight-ahead jazz (according to my definition of the style) played on a Rhodes, if the player uses the instrument to its advantage. I play Rhodes in such situations myself sometimes, and the longer sustain - compared to an acoustic piano - inspires me to use other voicings, often with a more dissonant edge. The "muddiness" can be compensated by adjusting the amp somewhat, so that you get some nice distorsion on the fatter chords (you got to have a good tube amp, though). 

As for Wurlitzers, I have found them (at least the ones I've tried) to be somewhat too "lightweight" in touch. I just like the more piano-like resistance in the keys of a Rhodes better (again, this will vary quite a bit between different Rhodes instruments, even within the Mark 1 generation).