V.S.O.P. Quintet-Historical importance

[mikeweil]

To me, this is somehow the closing chapter in the V.S.O.P. series, or an amendment:

 

[JSngry]

23 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

To me, this is somehow the closing chapter in the V.S.O.P. series, or an amendment:

 

Or a good - nay, EXCELLENT - reason to never do THAT again...

[bertrand]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

My favorite VSOP record was the last one, which was (is?) kind of obscure.

The Frisky Factor is pretty high here!

Circe later became Atlantis. 

[Quasimado]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

At the time, it was fun in an "oh wow, they can still do that when they want to" kind of way.

Now, it still is fun in that way, only so much time has passed that it's not really relevant to anybody's reality that they could, it's like DUH, OF COURSE they could. shouldn't have been any question, but, you know, maybe there was. At the time, any time Wayne played more than three notes together, it was perceived as a "revelation" or something. But hell, people like that, they don't lose anything. They might get old, they might die, they might go elsewhere, but you don't LOSE skills like that, you just don't. But hey, it was a gig, people were thrilled by it and were willing to pay money to hear it, so why not.

But note - not one of them went back into that type of thing as a full-time career path. Not one of them.

I caught Freddie in Hawaii 1978 with a local group including Gabe Balthazar on alto. Be-bop and standards. Great night ...

[JSngry]

No reason why it shouldn't have been. But " Be-bop and standards" was not the "brand" of "VSOP".

[Gheorghe]

14 minutes ago, JSngry said:

No reason why it shouldn't have been. But " Be-bop and standards" was not the "brand" of "VSOP".

Sure, it was not a be-bop revival band like the "Giants of Jazz" . 

But especially on "Under the Sky" from 1979 (that´s the title of the album ?), there is a lot of new material, really wonderful. 

By the way, because Wallace Roney was mentioned here: 

I also saw "V.S.O.P. II" I think in summer 1983 on a 3 days festival: Dizzy was before them and in top form and got standing ovations. 

The very nice and articulate Herbie Hancock announced the VSOP concert with something like "we hope that we can get at least a bit of applause after you heard Dizzy...". 

Sure they got. Well, it was the Marsalis Brothers Wynton and Brandford, they played OK...or even more, they cooked, but it was especially for Herbie-Ron-Tony, that I remember the set. So it was 3 All-Stars with 2 "young lions" (at least from the point of view from then). 

[mikeweil]

21 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

Well, it was the Marsalis Brothers Wynton and Brandford, they played OK...or even more, they cooked, but it was especially for Herbie-Ron-Tony, that I remember the set. So it was 3 All-Stars with 2 "young lions" (at least from the point of view from then). 

Considering the strong 1960's Miles influence on the music of the Marsalis brothers and Roney, they were a natural choice. Tony and Herbie played on their records, didn't they? Since Miles followed a different path, all the more so. They did for them what Miles had dome in the sixties.

[Mark Stryker]

On 9/30/2021 at 2:55 PM, JSngry said:

At the time, it was fun in an "oh wow, they can still do that when they want to" kind of way.

Now, it still is fun in that way, only so much time has passed that it's not really relevant to anybody's reality that they could, it's like DUH, OF COURSE they could. shouldn't have been any question, but, you know, maybe there was. At the time, any time Wayne played more than three notes together, it was perceived as a "revelation" or something. But hell, people like that, they don't lose anything. They might get old, they might die, they might go elsewhere, but you don't LOSE skills like that, you just don't. But hey, it was a gig, people were thrilled by it and were willing to pay money to hear it, so why not.

But note - not one of them went back into that type of thing as a full-time career path. Not one of them.

You don't lose the skills, but they can get rusty, and I think it took a minute for Wayne;'s chops to get back up to speed in this language -- those were muscles he hadn't exercised in a while, especially compared to Freddie and Herbie. He sounds more comfortable and fluid on the subsequent albums after the black-cover double LP that was the band's coming-out party in America. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Mark Stryker

[Teasing the Korean]

8 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

You don't lose the skills, but they can get rusty, and I think it minute for Wayne;'s chops to get back up to speed in this language -- those were muscles he hadn't exercised in a while, especially compared to Freddie and Herbie. He sounds more comfortable and fluid on the subsequent albums after this black-cover double that was the band's coming-out party in America. 

The name-dropper whom I discuss in the college jazz program nightmares thread said that Herbie had gotten rusty from playing synths in the 70s, and that he had to work hard to get his piano chops together for VSOP.  He told the story, like all of his stories, as though he were best friends with the artist being discussed.

Edited October 1, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

I get that you use a different set of muscles., or even different parts of your brain.

What bugged me then - and bugs me maybe even more today - was that any of these players "needed" to "get back" to doing that type of thing for any reason other than it was a fun thing to do for a good paycheck or 20. It's not like anybody was "repenting" or anything, like some people wanted to think it was. No. There was nothing to repent of/for. What repentance was needed was for bad records, not for the type of musics on those bad records.

But this notion that Wayne Shorter was saying oh, I'm SO sorry for Weather Report, I'll never do THAT again, uh....yeah, sure, whatever. Or that ANY of them had seen the errors of there ways and were going to turn back time...that was to be Wynton's job, and in hindsight, if anything, fuck VSOP for putting that idea in anybody's head.

Thanks VSOP, you inadvertently Al-Qaeda-ed jazz.

[Rabshakeh]

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I get that you use a different set of muscles., or even different parts of your brain.

I like that. Fusion-brained. 

[JSngry]

The synapses of the various creative processes are still a mystery to me, but I have no problem accepting that Wayne (in particular, but not exclusively him) was able to access different ones to achieve different types of thoughts and results. And then again, new ones once he started doing his later bands and projects.

I do think that we (mostly) all sell ourselves short in that regard.

[Rooster_Ties]

25 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I like that. Fusion-brained. 

I think of all three of those Herbie-Ron-Tony trio albums from 1977 and 1982 — as being kinda-sorta “acoustic fusion” music for piano trio.  Not every last track, but the majority of them seem semi-informed by Herbie’s fusion work.

Talking about two released under Herbie’s name in ‘77 & ‘82 — and the third one is under Ron’s name (also from ‘77, exact same recording date as the Herbie date.)

Part of it is the sound of Ron’s direct pickup (having a longer sustain than a naturally mic’ed upright) — but I swear it’s not just the way the bass was recorded that makes those dates seem like “acoustic fusion” to me.

[JSngry]

They had all changed, in ways from which they were not walking back, not that they wanted to. 

To quibble a bit, though, what  were Herbie's "fusion" records? At least as that term is generically used, aka "jazz-rock"? Asking because, although Herbe at different points made more " commercial" records,  I can't think of any that were engaged with "rock". Pretty much everything but that, actually!

[Joe]

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

They had all changed, in ways from which they were not walking back, not that they wanted to. 

To quibble a bit, though, what  were Herbie's "fusion" records? At least as that term is generically used, aka "jazz-rock"? Asking because, although Herbe at different points made more " commercial" records,  I can't think of any that were engaged with "rock". Pretty much everything but that, actually!

And SEXTANT, an ostensibly "fusion" record, is about as far out as Herbie ever got.

[John L]

Back to the original question, in some ways I think that V.S.O.P. was historically more important than Massey Hall.   As has already been noted, the music played at Massey Hall, although very great, was already a decade old at the time.  The real historical significance of the recording is probably the fact that (I believe) it is the only recording that we have of Diz, Bird, Bud, and Max all playing together.   Diz, Bird, and Bud were also recorded together in 1951, but with Roy Haynes on drums.  Mingus in the mix is an added attraction. 

As far as the historical significance of V.S.O.P. is concerned, I think of it as one of the confirmations in the 70s of the enduring compelling beauty of classic acoustic jazz at a time when all of the individual musicians in the band, except maybe Ron Carter, were pursuing fusion projects.   I think that had a real influence on where jazz went in the 1980s, for better or worse.    

Edited October 2, 2021 by John L

[BFrank]

On 9/30/2021 at 10:55 AM, felser said:

This one?  Love it:

I saw the Berkeley date on 7/16/77 included in that album. It was great, of course. I went partly because I never got to see Miles with the 60's Quintet, but was also a big fan of all those guys.

[Rabshakeh]

8 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I think of all three of those Herbie-Ron-Tony trio albums from 1977 and 1982 — as being kinda-sorta “acoustic fusion” music for piano trio.  Not every last track, but the majority of them seem semi-informed by Herbie’s fusion work.

It’s not just the music. They’d been playing in stadiums. Different kinds of tricks go down.

[mikeweil]

12 hours ago, Joe said:

And SEXTANT, an ostensibly "fusion" record, is about as far out as Herbie ever got.

There are a few Blue Note sessions that are pretty far out, too. But Sextant leads the pack.

[DMP]

I was at the original concert, part of the Newport in New York festival  - it was billed as sort of a Herbie Hancock retrospective. The was a lot of anticipation. And it was sort of a homecoming for Freddie Hubbard, marking his return to more straight-ahead Jazz (he played in several Newport concerts that week and was very well received). The audience was excited for that first group, the one that eventually got the VSOP name, and they could do no wrong. But for me, the highlight turned out to be the second group - the Mwandishi band - it was almost other worldly, mesmerizing. The third group was some sort of expanded Headhunters, it became dreary pretty quickly and I left after a couple numbers.

The next year (1977) what became VSOP toured - the Berkeley concert became an album, as did some Japanese concerts. For their New York appearance, again as part of the Newport festival, they played at the much larger Lincoln Center hall. John Klemperer was the opener, and he played a VERY long set, I think I was worn out by the time VSOP took the stage. In some ways it lacked the excitement of the previous year. 

[soulpope]

On 1.10.2021 at 0:36 AM, John L said:

As far as the historical significance of V.S.O.P. is concerned, I think of it as one of the confirmations in the 70s of the enduring compelling beauty of classic acoustic jazz at a time when all of the individual musicians in the band, except maybe Ron Carter, were pursuing fusion projects.   I think that had a real influence on where jazz went in the 1980s, for better or worse.    

Yep ....

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

On 9/30/2021 at 10:55 AM, felser said:

This one?  Love it:

I am on my phone i dnt know about format but I completely didn’t get this lp - i am so sorry - I couldn’t make heads or tails of anything anyone was playing on this record - gave all 4 sides a close listen - the Wayne side maybe came closest to a a keeper but even with Wayne 96% of his playing on this lp i completely don’t get - 

Edited October 5, 2021 by chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez

[felser]

On 10/2/2021 at 6:49 AM, mikeweil said:

There are a few Blue Note sessions that are pretty far out, too. But Sextant leads the pack.

Which Blue Notes do you have in mind?  I found the Warner Bros. Mwandishi recordings a (good) stretch, but the Blue Notes were, to me, just things of beauty.

[mikeweil]

I didn't mean Herbie's Blue Notes but some of the sideman dates he did for the label.

[Rooster_Ties]

5 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

I didn't mean Herbie's Blue Notes but some of the sideman dates he did for the label.

All Seeing Eye, surely, and the like.  Also, Herbie's playing on Tyrone Washington's unreleased 2nd BN leader date is very similar too, very percussive throughout.  LOVE that side of Herbie.  Comes out a bit on Grachan Moncur's Some Other Stuff.

I sure wish he'd done a piano-trio(!) record playing just like that, with that overly percussive approach -- circa 1968 -- 'traditional' instrumentation sure, but what for him would have been some pretty ballsy playing.  Could have been an incredible album.