V.S.O.P. Quintet-Historical importance

[jazzbo]

I don't know if I have ever recounted my V.S.O.P. experience. I saw them in Cleveland. Waited patiently with excitement. This was at an amazing venue, a revolving stage. There was a long wait for the band to appear. . . it turns out that Freddie's plane had been delayed and he didn't yet show. Finally Tony, Ron, Wayne and Herbie came out and played two numbers. . . it was such a joy to hear them and see them! My first experience with live jazz of such caliber. And then finally Freddie arrived. He tottered to the stage and it seemed evident that Freddie had had a few as he addressed the audience. They launched into play. . . during Freddie's solo a few numbnuts started heckling Freddie. I distinctly heard one say "Miles would not have played that." Freddie erupted in an angry fuselage of words in return, put his trumpet down on a stool and stormed off the stage. The band finished up that number, took a few bows. . .and that was that.

Great while it lasted!

[Dub Modal]

Listening now. Bass recording is pretty wonky but after a while it stops being distracting. Good album! 

[Gheorghe]

13 hours ago, jazzbo said:

I don't know if I have ever recounted my V.S.O.P. experience. I saw them in Cleveland. Waited patiently with excitement. This was at an amazing venue, a revolving stage. There was a long wait for the band to appear. . . it turns out that Freddie's plane had been delayed and he didn't yet show. Finally Tony, Ron, Wayne and Herbie came out and played two numbers. . . it was such a joy to hear them and see them! My first experience with live jazz of such caliber. And then finally Freddie arrived. He tottered to the stage and it seemed evident that Freddie had had a few as he addressed the audience. They launched into play. . . during Freddie's solo a few numbnuts started heckling Freddie. I distinctly heard one say "Miles would not have played that." Freddie erupted in an angry fuselage of words in return, put his trumpet down on a stool and stormed off the stage. The band finished up that number, took a few bows. . .and that was that.

Great while it lasted!

Thank you so much  for telling us that story . 

Yes, I can imagine that Freddie could be a bit choleric. I have read somewhere that he could be a little abusive and sometimes drunk to much or even other things. When he was with the Max Roach Quintet in Europe (I think it was in the mid sixties) and it was recorded (no good sound quality) and at some point he stops his solo and shouts "Jive assed m......" 

He may have been a more "difficult" member of the group , the others always were very articulate persons. 

Well, but to say "Miles would not have played that" is unfair. I think it is quite stupid to think about that group only as Miles´quintet with Freddie instead of Miles. I actually don´t think about Miles if I listen to VSOP or to BN "Mayden Vojage" which also has a Miles-men with Freddie....". 

[Rabshakeh]

Joe Boyd has a story to that effect in White Bicycles.

[Gheorghe]

2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Joe Boyd has a story to that effect in White Bicycles.

I had to google it, but sorry to say I will not buy it, since its more about music I didn´t listen to. He says something about Freddie Hubbard ? 

Well I found only a Freddie Hubbard Story in the book "Sounds" by Dutch recording engineer Bolleman (Timeless Records), and I think on that date he was okay and cooperative, unless then Woody Shaw on a similar date.....

Another Hubbard Story is in the book about Dexter, when they were making the Round Midnite Film in Paris and somehow Hubbard couldn´t be found or wouldn´t get out of his hotel. But when they finally had him and he saw the rebuild stage of Birdland he was astonished and said, that nobody had even TOLD him about the film. So he was just sent to Paris without no information......, that´s also quite strange.

A pity there is not a book about Freddie Hubbard. Now there are so many books about many artists, about Lee Morgan, about Jackie McLean, Hank Mobley......, strange there is not a book about Freddie, he would deserve it. 

And there were so many Hubbard fans of my generation. Red Clay was our favourite record, and Red Clay with VSOP........just wonderful.....sooooo great ! 

[Rabshakeh]

9 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

I had to google it, but sorry to say I will not buy it, since its more about music I didn´t listen to. He says something about Freddie Hubbard ? 

Yes. Boyd is an American who discovered / produced lots of major British bands in the 1960s, including Pink Floyd, the Incredible String Band, Fairport Convention and Nick Drake.

It's mostly about his time as a folk rock A&R/producer in London, but he actually started in the jazz scene, running tours in Europe for George Wein, so a surprisingly large amount of it is jazz (probably up to 1/5). He is very respectful of jazz and clearly sees it as being on a higher level than the music he was involved in (save perhaps for Nick Drake).

Most of the jazz stories are about having to coax 60 year old swing veterans out of bars where they'd been having "breakfast" in time to catch early trains, but there's also recollections of everyone from Coleman Hawkins (I think) to Albert Ayler. One of the anecdotes is about Freddie Hubbard turning up late, falling down drunk and very angry to a gig in Europe and cursing out the crowd when it got restless. It was obviously a big embarrassment for Boyd, as a very young man who was supposed to me responsible for making things go smoothly. He is still quite respectful though (certainly in contrast to ISB, whom he obviously though were idiots, or Fairport Convention).

It is a good book, essential for folk rock fans, but less so probably for jazz. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Rabshakeh

[Gheorghe]

53 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Yes. Boyd is an American who discovered / produced lots of major British bands in the 1960s, including Pink Floyd, the Incredible String Band, Fairport Convention and Nick Drake.

It's mostly about his time as a folk rock A&R/producer in London, but he actually started in the jazz scene, running tours in Europe for George Wein, so a surprisingly large amount of it is jazz (probably up to 1/5). He is very respectful of jazz and clearly sees it as being on a higher level than the music he was involved in (save perhaps for Nick Drake).

Most of the jazz stories are about having to coax 60 year old swing veterans out of bars where they'd been having "breakfast" in time to catch early trains, but there's also recollections of everyone from Coleman Hawkins (I think) to Albert Ayler. One of the anecdotes is about Freddie Hubbard turning up late, falling down drunk and very angry to a gig in Europe and cursing out the crowd when it got restless. It was obviously a big embarrassment for Boyd, as a very young man who was supposed to me responsible for making things go smoothly. He is still quite respectful though (certainly in contrast to ISB, whom he obviously though were idiots, or Fairport Convention).

It is a good book, essential for folk rock fans, but less so probably for jazz. 

Thank you for your inside information. Well, yes, it seems that Freddie Hubbard could be a bit difficult. But during that time he was also making some of his most substatial albums for BN and on the BN-documentary from 1985 is is very articulate and has only praises for Alfred Lion and Frank Wolff....

[Rabshakeh]

2 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Thank you for your inside information. Well, yes, it seems that Freddie Hubbard could be a bit difficult. But during that time he was also making some of his most substatial albums for BN and on the BN-documentary from 1985 is is very articulate and has only praises for Alfred Lion and Frank Wolff....

Sounds like he had gotten himself together at that point. I think (on the basis of memoirs and books like Notes & Tones) that the period 1965-1972 must have been an awful time to be a bop-based jazz musician. Collapsing audiences and sales; collapsing interest/cultural capital; no respect from the wider world.

[JSngry]

Freddie had audience conflicts for a while. He himself told the story of debuting his Breaking Point band and material and clearing the house before the end of the set. That seems to have really dying him.

I don't know that I would say that he wanted to be a "star", but he sure didn't mind being one. And, you know, why not?

[Larry Kart]

"That seems to have really dying him."  ????

[JSngry]

Damn phone typing....stung, not dying...jeesh.

[Gheorghe]

On 1.12.2021 at 6:27 PM, Dub Modal said:

Listening now. Bass recording is pretty wonky but after a while it stops being distracting. Good album! 

Well, but it doesn´t have the same fire like the live albums, above all the 1979 "Under the Sky". 
The long jazzrock tune written by Hubbard is great, but on this I would prefer electric bass. 

I think the bass is recorded too loud, Freddie and Wayne sound really off-mike, Freddie plays fantastic, as does Herbie, but Wayne doesn´t seem to have to say much on this. 

Herbie´s tune "Fingerpainting" is great medium tempo swing, but I don´t really like those interruptions ...... where they don´t swing and then start to swing again. 

The Shorter ballad Circle is fine.

Tony´s solo on his composition is fantastic as all stuff of Tony, one of my favourite drummers. 

My CD has also two "CD-Versions" as bonus tracks. The jazz-rock tune sounds better on this, but still I say I like electric bass more for that kind of rhythm....

 

[soulpope]

22 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

Well, but it doesn´t have the same fire like the live albums, above all the 1979 "Under the Sky". 
The long jazzrock tune written by Hubbard is great, but on this I would prefer electric bass. 

I think the bass is recorded too loud, Freddie and Wayne sound really off-mike, Freddie plays fantastic, as does Herbie, but Wayne doesn´t seem to have to say much on this. 

Herbie´s tune "Fingerpainting" is great medium tempo swing, but I don´t really like those interruptions ...... where they don´t swing and then start to swing again. 

The Shorter ballad Circle is fine.

Tony´s solo on his composition is fantastic as all stuff of Tony, one of my favourite drummers. 

My CD has also two "CD-Versions" as bonus tracks. The jazz-rock tune sounds better on this, but still I say I like electric bass more for that kind of rhythm....

This is a "direct-to-disc" recording .... 

[Gheorghe]

On 10.12.2021 at 8:14 AM, soulpope said:

This is a "direct-to-disc" recording .... 

what does that mean exactly ? Is that the reason why the horns sound off mike ? 

[Gheorghe]

I still don´t know what "direct-to-disc" means, and why the horns sound off mike on the studio album....

[felser]

Direct-to-disc recording refers to sound recording methods that bypass the use of magnetic tape recording and record audio directly onto analog disc masters.   

So no opportunity for mixing...

[paulfromcamden]

22 minutes ago, felser said:

Direct-to-disc recording refers to sound recording methods that bypass the use of magnetic tape recording and record audio directly onto analog disc masters.   

So no opportunity for mixing...

It still runs through a mixer of some kind though surely. Just means it has to be mixed in real time (and there's obviously no opportunity to go back and edit takes).

[JSngry]

It's pretty much the way they made 78s, just with better tools at their disposal.

[jazzbo]

2 hours ago, paulfromcamden said:

It still runs through a mixer of some kind though surely. Just means it has to be mixed in real time (and there's obviously no opportunity to go back and edit takes).

[JSngry]

17 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

Ah, the Great Lost Steely Dan Record!

[Gheorghe]

On 18.12.2021 at 1:59 AM, JSngry said:

Ah, the Great Lost Steely Dan Record!

But if "the mix is almost perfect", the studio album of VSOP is not perfect at all. The bass is recorded too loud, and the horns sound off mike. The live recording "Under The Sky" is much better recorded.....

[Daniel A]

On 2021-12-17 at 11:10 PM, felser said:

Direct-to-disc recording refers to sound recording methods that bypass the use of magnetic tape recording and record audio directly onto analog disc masters.   

So no opportunity for mixing...

I don't own this album, but usually when there has been a CD reissue of an old "direct-to-disc" album, don't they use some kind of tape source? Otherwise they would have to do a "vinyl rip", but that is not the case with some other Columbia albums that were initially direct-to-disc but have subsequently been reissued on CD. I suppose they had sometimes (always?) a tape machine running as well, but then again it might have been just a two channel backup. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Daniel A

[Gheorghe]

54 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I don't own this album, but usually when there has been a CD reissue of an old "direct-to-disc" album, don't they use some kind of tape source? Otherwise they would have to do a "vinyl rip", but that is not the case with some other Columbia albums that were initially direct-to-disc but have subsequently been reissued on CD. I suppose they had sometimes (always?) a tape machine running as well, but then again it might have been just a two channel backup. 

Thank you Daniel,  maybe the didn´t make the CD properly. It´s a "Wounded Bird" CD, but I had other Wounded Bird and they sound wonderful.....

On 18.12.2021 at 1:59 AM, JSngry said:

Ah, the Great Lost Steely Dan Record!

But if "the mix is almost perfect", the studio album of VSOP is not perfect at all. The bass is recorded too loud, and the horns sound off mike. The live recording "Under The Sky" is much better recorded.....

[Quasimado]

On 12/9/2021 at 5:21 PM, Gheorghe said:

 I don´t really like those interruptions ...... where they don´t swing and then start to swing again. 
 

I thought I was the only one ...

[Gheorghe]

3 hours ago, Quasimado said:

I thought I was the only one ...

Great, so we are already two. Don´t misunderstand me, I like Free Jazz very much, but if it´s straight ahead I don´t like those stop and go´s like it´s on that disc....., they swing really hard on "Under The Sky". But I like the first tune, only if I could hear the horns better....