V.S.O.P. Quintet-Historical importance

[Teasing the Korean]

34 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

This is a personal preference, but I quite like the combination of acoustic bass and Rhodes, whereas I am less fond of acoustic piano together with electric bass. 

Agreed, if I had to choose one combo over the other.

But mercy mercy, I would choose Wurly and acoustic bass over Rhodes and acoustic bass.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[mikeweil]

George Duke played Wurlitzer, and it sounded great!

Te real Ron Carter acoustic bass sound can be heard on this Johnny Griffin Riverside LP, never heard it recorded better:

A 1985 pure acoustic recording is this:

Pickups made it easier, of course, but I never heard a more convincing sound as a well played, well tuned bass fiddle.

 

[JSngry]

Electric bass can give it a certainpeople sound. Not better (or worse), just different.

Sound is sound. Say what you mean how you mean, it's all right.

[Joe]

I mean, my favorite Ron Carter performances are probably "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" and this track, so WTFDIK?

 

[Gheorghe]

On 9.10.2021 at 11:39 PM, Teasing the Korean said:

Agreed, if I had to choose one combo over the other.

But mercy mercy, I would choose Wurly and acoustic bass over Rhodes and acoustic bass.

The Fender Rhodes was quite much used, when an acoustic piano was not available. For some years I played with a group that got many gigs also in places where there was no piano, so I remember well how hard it was to carry that heavy Rhodes around in the car and downstairs to cellar clubs or on stages, very very hard with that big black case. 

After some gigs I found the combination fender piano and acoustic bass is not so fine and suggested we take a fender bass player and go more into the direction away from acoustic. Later I replaced the Fender with a combination of 2 Yamaha-Keyboards (Masterkeyboard and DX 7) and so it went all electric, But I eventually returned to all acoustic gigs also, since I never lost my love for acoustic jazz (so acoustic in my case means mike for the horn, for the piano and pickup for the bass.

Back to VSOP: I was quite astonished, how much the pick-up sound of Ron Carter got negative reactions here. Especially because that was THE sound of the 70´s. 
Yesterday I listened again to some VSOP and for example, Ron Carters beautiful slow waltz "Tear Drops" is just fantastic and I listened carefully to Ron´s great solo and his dynamic way together with Tony to set the pace in the faster tunes. 

And Ron´s sound was quite a model. Listen also to McCoy Tyner´s famous Milestone album "Supertrios" with the first disc with McCoy, Ron and Tony. 

And by the way: When I started to get into playing jazz, I had got some money after my grandma died and used the money to buy a bassfiddle, to have it at home if we boys do repetitions. And soon I thought if I have that bass fiddle in my room, why not try to learn by myself to play it. And someone gave me a book about jazz-bass playing with some exercises, the author was no one less than Ron Carter !!!! And I really made progresses and for some time really studied hard on bass, first getting blisters but later even could play some gigs when a bass was needed (by the way: there was a special event, really my scariest gig, I might post a story about that, but don´t know where....Musicians´ forum ???).

[mikeweil]

On 13.10.2021 at 7:50 AM, Gheorghe said:

The Fender Rhodes was quite much used, when an acoustic piano was not available. For some years I played with a group that got many gigs also in places where there was no piano, so I remember well how hard it was to carry that heavy Rhodes around in the car and downstairs to cellar clubs or on stages, very very hard with that big black case. 

I remember two gigs when transporting the Rhodes was downright dangerous. One was a very small spirall staircase In Heidelberg's famous "Cave" jazzclub. After that our pianist said he would never play there again, not for a thousand bucks for him alone. The other was in a club on the first floor of a shopping mall where the long escalator was the only way up. Or down, after the gig, when the Rhodes case almost escaped down all by itself. Those were the days ......

[Daniel A]

After a gig on Rhodes 20 years ago, I dropped everybody in the band off in a rental car, and then realized that I was outside my own house alone with a Rhodes in the trunk. And I lived on the 16th floor... 

I happened to convince some bypasser to get it out of the car and then just dragged it after me into the elevator and further into the apartment. Those were certainly the days...😄 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Daniel A

[JSngry]

And thus the quick acceptance of various "keyboards".

I still have my Rhodes, still play on it from time to time, it's like my good dog that will live with me forever. But there's a reason why it's in the same spot not and forevermore...that bad boy weighs more than I do, I believe, and is even less flexible.

[Gheorghe]

But the sound of the Rhodes inspired me to get more into the sound of the 70´s. You can´t play the same chords and stuff like acoustic bop or hard bop. The Rhodes just leads you into another direction. Not like the later Yamaha master keyboards where you can play exactly like an acoustic piano, or the Yamaha pianola I have now for 3 years. 
 

Well as you say about carrying that "boy that weights more than a lot of guys who play it" and "those were the days".... I also still must laugh about the next thing, or the next step of electric jazz, when I played those DX7 keyboards, I put it on top of the Fender, and it had those funny catriges, I think 24 sounds on each of them, and had to memorize which one you need for which tune, and quickly because it was live gigs. 

[Daniel A]

1 hour ago, Gheorghe said:

But the sound of the Rhodes inspired me to get more into the sound of the 70´s. You can´t play the same chords and stuff like acoustic bop or hard bop. 

I agree that you play differently on a Rhodes, as I mentioned in a post above. But I think that you can still play hard bop tunes. You just do them differently. 

[Gheorghe]

18 minutes ago, Daniel A said:

I agree that you play differently on a Rhodes, as I mentioned in a post above. But I think that you can still play hard bop tunes. You just do them differently. 

Yeah, that´s true. 

[Gheorghe]

Just have listened to the first VSOP.

Just wonderful besides the acoustic set is the sextet with Eddie Henderson, Julian Priester, Bennie Maupin, Buster Williams and Billy Hart. And of course the electric band with Wah Wah Watson and Bennie Maupin. 

The presence of all that music at that time sure made us musicians and fans flexible, that we dug acoustic AND electric. To hear let´s say old Miles LPs like "Steamin´" with the same enthusiasm like "Headhunters". 

I think there was two groups of fans, those who listend more to "Headhunters" and those who listend more to "RTF". In my case, though RTF has some great music, I preferred Hancock´s bands, it´s more earth-bound and I think or at least knew people who were crazy about RTF were mostly the kind of more philosophical young persons who asked themselfs who they are and what can they do to make the world better and so on....

In the later 80´s I heard a fantastic re-make of "Headhunters" that was called "Headhunters II" with still Wah Wah Watson, and Mike Brecker on sax. 

 

[Peter Friedman]

George,

You left out the other group of fans.  Those who did not listen to either RTF or Headhunters, but listened to acoustic jazz from the 1920's up to today.

[CJ Shearn]

4 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

George,

You left out the other group of fans.  Those who did not listen to either RTF or Headhunters, but listened to acoustic jazz from the 1920's up to today.

Who craved Concord and Pablo releases who ignored ECM?

[Peter Friedman]

23 minutes ago, CJ Shearn said:

Who craved Concord and Pablo releases who ignored ECM?

Yes, but other labels I followed included : Muse, Uptown, Criss Cross, Red and Timeless and a number of others.

[sidewinder]

39 minutes ago, CJ Shearn said:

Who craved Concord and Pablo releases who ignored ECM?

Me ! (back in the day )

[Teasing the Korean]

I thought I had unloaded this album ages ago, but there it was, filed under "Q" for "quintet."  And all this time I'd been looking in the Herbie and Wayne sections!

Will have to revisit!  

[Gheorghe]

14 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

George,

You left out the other group of fans.  Those who did not listen to either RTF or Headhunters, but listened to acoustic jazz from the 1920's up to today.

Hi Peter, 

but I was referring to both acoustic and electric jazz in my posting from yesterday (as I said we dug both acoustic and electric. We heard old acoustic Miles LPs like "Steamin´"  with the same enthusiasm as we listened to "Headhunters"....
And not to forget what was before, Bop, Hardbop, Free. And pre bop pioneers like Roy, Hawk, Lester, Art Tatum, Billie Holyday etc. we also "studied"....

You mentioned jazz "from the 1920´s". Well I must admit we were listening mostly to what was played live and what WE could play with others, which ranged from acoustic (then so called "modern jazz" to the contemporanous electric jazz. 
There was a club in Vienna, that presented also some "oldtime" jazz., but in general those bands were mostly amateur bands of older music lovers, and there was also another audience like we youngsters were. They were from aonther generation and didn´t like youngsters like we were, with long hair and all that.....

9 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

Yes, but other labels I followed included : Muse, Uptown, Criss Cross, Red and Timeless and a number of others.

Yes, I also must admit I had very very little Pablo and Concord and more Muse and Timeless, but I think Timeless came even a bit later than the mid seventies. The first Timless I remember was two Blakey albums from 1977, and then very very much, a lot of great US-Stars....

ECM I listened only very very little, the only things I really loved was the two Dave Liebman albums "Lookout Farm" and "Drum Ode". 

6 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I thought I had unloaded this album ages ago, but there it was, filed under "Q" for "quintet."  And all this time I'd been looking in the Herbie and Wayne sections!

Will have to revisit!  

Oh yes, and probably you will also post your point of view about it. 

[Teasing the Korean]

Listening now.  The bass sound is the largest stumbling block for me. 

In retrospect, the album from a performance perspective sounds much more of its era than it did at the time.  

The two Herbie Hancock tunes and maybe one or two others come the closest to a mid-60s Blue Note/Miles aesthetic.  

For some of the other tunes, it is clear that the 1970s happened, for better or worse, even though they are not played with period instruments.  

Overall, a nice album with some really great playing, but not one that I will likely revisit any time soon.  

[Gheorghe]

16 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Listening now.  The bass sound is the largest stumbling block for me. 

In retrospect, the album from a performance perspective sounds much more of its era than it did at the time.  

The two Herbie Hancock tunes and maybe one or two others come the closest to a mid-60s Blue Note/Miles aesthetic.  

For some of the other tunes, it is clear that the 1970s happened, for better or worse, even though they are not played with period instruments.  

Overall, a nice album with some really great playing, but not one that I will likely revisit any time soon.  

Thank you for your impressions, actually a review. Which album was it. 

Yesterday I listened to the 1977 Tempest at the Coloseum and love it. That version of "Red Clay".....incredible. 

Well, maybe I should say it´s not exactly the kind of album for acoustic purists, searching the "pure sound", but on the other hand I´m a product of that time and though I didn´t come to jazz via rock or fusion, but vice versa, it was part of the time. And I was a musician, and my friends were musicians. That was the sound we wanted, and since many of my musician friends were drummers, Tony Williams was kind of our hero. I still listen very very much from what the drummer does, and that was the times, and what young so called "modern oriented" players did, as well as in so called "acoustic, though amplified" surroundings, as well as going electric all the way. Most of us did both. But I´m not speaking about the many amateur bands who played Dixie or something like that. They were kind of a close community and others who liked Trane, Tony, George Duke, or even Charlie Parker, were "outlaws". Once I was asked to sit in in a Dixie band and they called "Sweet Georgie Brown". Well , I tried my best to fit into it without giving up my own personality, let´s say the way Fats did "Georgia Brown" on the 1947 session with a mixed group of younger and older musicians, or Bird and Diz on Band for Bonds, but I also wanted to "honour" them oldtimers with some nice fast stride as I had heard it from Bud let´s say on "Idaho", but though some people from the audience and even the younger musicians who had to play permanent in that band, the leader, an older beer drinking banjo player and ex policeman  hated it

[Teasing the Korean]

57 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

Thank you for your impressions, actually a review. Which album was it. 

The double live album on Columbia with the black cover.  

Also, I should clarify what I meant by not returning to the album anytime soon.  I meant only that I have other albums by the participants that would be in heavier rotation.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

wwowow that japan studio album sounds way better than vsop live.   and its an early cd too.  want it

[Daniel A]

I would like to return to the topic of playing "straight-ahead jazz" (a misleading, but nevertheless accepted heading) on a Fender Rhodes.

It was mentioned upthread that some players are/were able to play the electric instrument with a bit more of a character. I believe that those who are successful in that, embrace the different timbre and sustain/staccato capabilities of the instrument. Someone recently made me aware of that I tend to play longer lines on piano than on Rhodes. I have reflected on that observation to understand why that is the case.

I already knew that I sometimes use different voicings, as I think that the Rhodes sound is an advantage when having two or three notes of the chord close to eachother. I do not know enough of theory to explain, but I am guessing it has something to do with the differing overtone characteristics of piano vs Rhodes. The longer sustain might also encourage me to let some chords ring for longer, which will also affect the choice of chord in the first place and how it sounds together with what else is being played. However, on the other hand it is also hard to resist using the quicker damping of the Rhodes for shorter staccato accents. Overall, this provides more variation in the way the comping supports the soloist (both from the Rhodes itself as well as other instrumentalists).

When it comes to the solo lines, I have not come to a conclusion, but a theory is that the two factors above (sustain/damping) are likely to break up also my soloing, whereas solo lines on an acoustical piano are more smoothed out and "flowing". I am sure fellow pianists recognize the fact that individual pianos are different, and sometimes you might encounter an old upright piano with "slow" damping, which might discourage you from playing a lot of quick passages.

I find this topic fascinating and would love to hear @Gheorghes and other people's view on this.

[Gheorghe]

@Daniel A

Very very interesting thoughts about the difference of playing Rhodes and acoustic, Thank you so much for that fascinating thing and in my case it´s a trip into the past. 

I was there, when Fender Rhodes got to be used more and more. 

During a time, when there were no digital pianos with almost original acoustic sounds, the Rhodes was probably the only possibility to play a gig if there was no piano in the joint. 
And I was there, when a school colleage from high school, who mostly played classic, but liked also to play what he thought is "jazz" (some Oscar Peterson styled piano jazz) , took it with him to the place where we had our school-spring week at some country area, 

Every evening he played it, some blues in F always, with runs from the right hand ad  doing the walking bass with the left hand, and making that "cool face".... 
And every kid who could play piano, those girlies who had learned "classical piano" tried to play that Fender. 

Poor Fender ! I soon noticed that the Fender Rhodes  is an individual instrument, You can´t play Bud Powell runs, Red Garland chords and Monkish touchs on it, it would sound terrible, and I would feel pity for the instrument and get stomach pains...

So, I also enjoyed the different voicings, the difference between comping the group , using the advantages of longer sustain, more sparse chords, and not those quick runs. 
Anyway, it was the late 70s and so my first love had been playing acoustic, mostly bop, I was happy to join an "electric" group and learn to play that kind of music also, and most of all, starting to compose and get to use other electric keyboards that came around. 

About different pianos. That was my daily challenge for decades. Playing in clubs you rarely had the possibiliies to play a good piano. Most of them were old upright pianos, with "slow" damping. But sometimes, if we played "bop gigs" either trio, either with good horn players, it really inspired me. I had in my mind all those live recordings of Bud on "club pianos" like Birdland, Europe , or private at Francis´ place and so it might sound. I don´t have really problems to play "Salt Peanuts", "Dizzy Atmosphere" or "Cherokee" on those "bad pianos", but the runs will sound else than on a good piano. But it also was a challenge and fun to play some really deep ballad on some "shitbox" piano. 

Some examples of good played Rhodes in acoustic settings:
Bob James on "Mulligan/Baker at Carnegie Hall 74", and Billy Childs on "J.J. Johnson Nat Adderly Yokohama Concert 1977". 
The worst example of Rhodes played by a usual acoustsic pianists. Ken Werner on Mingus´"Something like a Bird"  versus Bob Neloms on acoustic "....

[Gheorghe]

On 30.9.2021 at 4:52 PM, JSngry said:

My favorite VSOP record was the last one, which was (is?) kind of obscure.

The Frisky Factor is pretty high here!

I got my copy today and listened to it allready. 

Well, yeah, really great. 
I love that first tune "Skagly", it really has some drive, and I love what Tony Williams does, he is my favourite drummer of that time.

I´m glad I had some  occasions to hear those five great musicians live.