Monk's First Two Riverside Albums

[Peter Friedman]

On 9/30/2021 at 7:57 AM, Guy Berger said:

The 1954 date is my favorite pre-1956 Miles, EASY.

Imho the reason the Milt/Monk collaborations work so well is that Monk injects much-needed grit into Milt’s effortless, slick bluesiness

I very much disagree with defining Milt Jackson' playing as " effortless slick bluesiness".

That is not the way I hear Bags at all.

 

[Larry Kart]

Nor do I hear him that way.

[JSngry]

Nor do I.

[Teasing the Korean]

Not to hijack my own thread, but the Riverside version of "Coming on the Hudson" from In Action feels kind of rushed, compared to the more laidback Columbia version that I first heard.  

Carry on.  

[HutchFan]

51 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Not to hijack my own thread, but the Riverside version of "Coming on the Hudson" from In Action feels kind of rushed, compared to the more laidback Columbia version that I first heard.  

Maybe because In Action was recorded in a live setting?  Just speculating.  Who knows!

Incidentally, I heard the 5-Spot version first and know it much better -- and the tempo feels perfect to me. 

But I'm going to grab Criss-Cross now and give the Columbia version a listen.   

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by HutchFan

[Teasing the Korean]

23 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Maybe because In Action was recorded in a live setting?  Just speculating.  Who knows!

Incidentally, I heard the 5-Spot version first and know it much better -- and the tempo feels perfect to me. 

But I'm going to grab Criss-Cross now and give the Columbia version a listen.   

The first version I heard was on Always Know, a Columbia 2-LP collection of stray Monk tracks.  The version on there came from a 1963 Columbia jazz sampler called Giants of Jazz.  It clocks in at 7:31.  This appears to be the same version that is a bonus track on the Criss Cross CD.  

Edited October 1, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[BillF]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

I very much disagree with defining Milt Jackson' playing as " effortless slick bluesiness".

That is not the way I hear Bags at all.

 

[HutchFan]

23 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

The first version I heard was on Always Know, a Columbia 2-LP collection of stray Monk tracks.  The version on there came from a 1963 Columbia jazz sampler called Giants of Jazz.  It clocks in at 7:31.  This appears to be the same version that is a bonus track on the Criss Cross CD.  

Well, I can see what you mean TtK.  The tempo is definitely more deliberate on the Columbia recording, and it changes the character of the piece considerably.  At the slower pace, "Coming on the Hudson" sorta reminds me of "Monk's Mood."  It's much more contemplative.

I like 'em both.  Different days, different tempos, no? 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by HutchFan

[Milestones]

Yes...Miles, Monk, and Milt--that's an all-time jazz classic! 

I have to say, I can't think of Milt doing Monk tunes on his own records or with MJQ (other than "Round Midnight").

 

[mikeweil]

On 29.9.2021 at 10:34 AM, Shrdlu said:

I have revisited the Blue Note recordings over the last few days, and I find them rather dreary, to be honest. The engineering (pre-Rudy) is not very good and the horn solos are rather lame. The tracks are short 78 items, so there is little room for piano solos when there are horns. The trio sides are better, but Art Blakey is not as rich sounding as he is on the 1955 Jazz Messengers date. The horns are fine, at last, on the 1952 session with Kenny Dorham, Lou Donaldson and Lucky Thompson. I like the 1948 session with Milt Jackson: for me, that is the most effective. I can see why Blue Note had difficulty selling the recordings as a whole.

Their recorded sound was pretty much standard for those years. The first two sessions are much closer to pre-bop - Monk was born in 1917, like Dizzy, and both were musically raised in the swing era, in different ways. One must not forget that Monk commented "I sound just like James P. Johnson" after listening to a playback of one of his solos for Columbia (!). His music is about sound and form/structure (that's what Coltrane meant when he described Monk as a musical architect of the highest order), and not about modernizimg the changes. His last compositions may sound simple, but they really strip the music down to the very essence of jazz and jazz forms. This is already there in these early pieces, and it is no wonder most sidemen did not yet get it. But they did their best. To me it sounds right. The mood is there.

[Teasing the Korean]

20 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

Their recorded sound was pretty much standard for those years. The first two sessions are much closer to pre-bop - Monk was born in 1917, like Dizzy, and both were musically raised in the swing era, in different ways. One must not forget that Monk commented "I sound just like James P. Johnson" after listening to a playback of one of his solos for Columbia (!). His music is about sound and form/structure (that's what Coltrane meant when he described Monk as a musical architect of the highest order), and not about modernizimg the changes. His last compositions may sound simple, but they really strip the music down to the very essence of jazz and jazz forms. This is already there in these early pieces, and it is no wonder most sidemen did not yet get it. But they did their best. To me it sounds right. The mood is there.

Completely agree. 

[Teasing the Korean]

18 hours ago, HutchFan said:

Well, I can see what you mean TtK.  The tempo is definitely more deliberate on the Columbia recording, and it changes the character of the piece considerably.  At the slower pace, "Coming on the Hudson" sorta reminds me of "Monk's Mood."  It's much more contemplative.

I like 'em both.  Different days, different tempos, no? 

I guess the tempo from the Columbia version is etched into my psyche - I even wrote lyrics to it about one of our cats.  I will have to listen more to the Riverside version. 

[Guy Berger]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:13 AM, Larry Kart said:

Nor do I hear him that way.

Looks like I’m in a minority!

Folks who disagree with me - what do you think about Cannonball Adderley’s pre-1962 work?

[Shrdlu]

I also protest about Milt Jackson being called slick. To me, the sound of his vibes is one of the most beautiful sounds of any kind. He was better recorded from the mid 50s on, and he slowed down the rotors after his earliest recordings, which was a brilliant stroke. I don't like the nervous shimmer of vibes playing with the rotors going fast.

I am disappointed with the audio on Monk's late 40s recordings and I don't think the age excuses it. I have all the Fats Waller, from 10 years earlier, and I'm happy with the sound on those recordings. No, the blame has to be aimed at WOR studios. Alfred Lion did not hesitate to dump them when he discovered Rudy van Gelder.

[danasgoodstuff]

2 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

Looks like I’m in a minority!

Folks who disagree with me - what do you think about Cannonball Adderley’s pre-1962 work?

I think Cannonball always sounded like the school teacher he was, but not necessarily in a bad way.  And Milt is slick, but not in a bad way either - people struggled for hundreds if not thousands of years to get to smooth and slick, fetishizing rough and raw is a recent thing.

[JSngry]

Milt was always...natural, at least to me. 

Cannonball was natural as well, but he had some more rows to hoe, imo.

Urbanity is, or used to be, a real thing 

[danasgoodstuff]

Urbanity is as real, and as problematic, as any other thing.  I enjoy both men's work, and have reservations about both too.  that's life.  and art.

[Teasing the Korean]

Urbanity is one of the qualities that draws us to jazz.  We are essentially drawn to the gentility, politeness, and civility that the music offers.  When we go to cocktail parties, we expect to hear the George Shearing Quintet. 

[JSngry]

Urbanity is only urbane if it's used as one of many options, including rough, rude, and nasty.

If I go to a cocktail party and hear the George Shearing Quintet, I am going to drink enough to puke, and then go do it right on the turntable (or Revox, if it's that kind of a joint) while the record's playing. And then see my way out, "apologizing" until I'm out of there. The do a bump and go on to someplace where I ain't gotta hear that crap.

THAT'S urbanity!

[mikeweil]

4 hours ago, Shrdlu said:

I also protest about Milt Jackson being called slick. To me, the sound of his vibes is one of the most beautiful sounds of any kind. He was better recorded from the mid 50s on, and he slowed down the rotors after his earliest recordings, which was a brilliant stroke. I don't like the nervous shimmer of vibes playing with the rotors going fast.

"Slick" really is an inappropriate term. But I think Cal Tjader had a more beautiful vibes sound in 1955 than Bags. It's a combination of many factors: the instrument itself, the oscillator setting, the mallets, and your striking technique. It's not just the studio engineer. Listen to Bags on other pre-1955 recordings. I dare say Jackson listened to Tjader and others and changed his sound (didn't he switch his vibes brand around that time?). The smaller labels had only one vibes player in their catalog, and Savoy was looking for one. Bags was lucky that Tjader opted for Fantasy and California, for convenience, 

Edited October 2, 2021 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

WOR was doing great work for Blue Note on their "hot jazz" stuff.

[Peter Friedman]

14 hours ago, JSngry said:

Urbanity is only urbane if it's used as one of many options, including rough, rude, and nasty.

If I go to a cocktail party and hear the George Shearing Quintet, I am going to drink enough to puke, and then go do it right on the turntable (or Revox, if it's that kind of a joint) while the record's playing. And then see my way out, "apologizing" until I'm out of there. The do a bump and go on to someplace where I ain't gotta hear that crap.

THAT'S urbanity!

It seems that the "many options" has a very narrow meaning. Or perhaps the problem is "Cocktail Parties" ?

 

[jazzbo]

13 hours ago, JSngry said:

WOR was doing great work for Blue Note on their "hot jazz" stuff.

I agree and actually enjoy the sound on the Monk material. The latest two disc collection sounds really good, and I really like the Japanese RVG editions I have perhaps even a bit more. Full, warm and present recordings.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

It seems that the "many options" has a very narrow meaning. Or perhaps the problem is "Cocktail Parties" ?

How are cocktail parties a problem, unless you are driving?  Pandemic notwithstanding.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[Peter Friedman]

5 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

How are cocktail parties a problem, unless you are driving?  Pandemic notwithstanding.

My point was not clear.  

If the George Shearing Quintet brings such an extreme response (to Jim), perhaps he should not attend any cocktail parties.. 

Though the George Shearing Quintet is not my favorite jazz group, I do enjoy some of their recordings. The over the top reaction that Jim stated to the George Shearing Quintet is to be polite - very strange.