Jazz in Silhouette Running Order(s)

[JSngry]

At some point (the impulse! issue?) the sides were flipped. On LP, no biggie, but this carried over to the Evidence CD, which then does not leave the record experience ending with "Ancient Aiethopia", which I think is a perfect ending to a perfect record.

So, any idea who/why the order go flipped? Was Ra involved or was it just an Alton Abraham thing, or did nobody really care?

Anybody here tried it both was? If so, any preference?

There's also one more thing - Ra's OG liner notes suggest another possible track order:

Has anybody tried this, just for grins? I plan on it, sometime.

 

[Rabshakeh]

Not really a response to the above, but I am an original running order completist. There's nothing that enrages me more than a CD reissue that alters the order or adds bonus tracks or alternative takes in the middle. I know I'm not alone in this.

[Teasing the Korean]

8 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Not really a response to the above, but I am an original running order completist. There's nothing that enrages me more than a CD reissue that alters the order or adds bonus tracks or alternative takes in the middle. I know I'm not alone in this.

Sometimes the side orders of LPs was ambiguous.  I have LPs from the 1950s in which no side 1 or side 2 was specified.  Similarly, record labels may have switched sides for any number of reasons.  

[Rabshakeh]

1 minute ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Sometimes the side orders of LPs was ambiguous.  I have LPs from the 1950s in which no side 1 or side 2 was specified.  Similarly, record labels may have switched sides for any number of reasons.  

You're charitable. I have an elaborate theory involving the Illuminati going on which I think better explains it.

[JSngry]

Side-flipping, that I can do on my own. What really caught my eye was the original  liners, where it looked like a different order might have been the plan for Side 1...

I will say, though, it's a totally different experience ending the record on "Ancient Aiethopia" than it is on "Blues At Midnight". But that change goes back to the impulse! deal so...who let that one go through? And why didn't Evidence feel compelled to undo it? Alton Abraham was around for both of those, so if it was an error, he could have fixed it.

I'm going to have to try that alternate Side 1 order to see what happens...

[Teasing the Korean]

I am going to do this tomorrow.

I should add here that my first two Sun Ra albums were Jazz in Silhouette and Futuristic Sounds of on Savoy.  I got both of these on CD at a time when I had tons of jazz on LP, but almost none on CD.  Both of these records made a real impression on me.  

I think my next Sun Ra was the twofer of Fate in a Pleasant Mood and When Sun Comes Out.  

 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I should add here that my first two Sun Ra albums were Jazz in Silhouette and Futuristic Sounds of on Savoy.  I got both of these on CD at a time when I had tons of jazz on LP, but almost none on CD.  Both of these records made a real impression on me. 

Both very strong albums, they would/should make an impression on anybody, indeed!

The Savoy record...I kinda let it slip through the cracks until recently. My bad, for sure. A very provocative collection of material and performances. But it does make a very nice 3-fer with the two that are now on Delmark as The Tom Wilson-Produced Sun Ra, probably coming soon to a PD EuroMusiPorn outlet near you soon. But if you buy your own, get the latest two Delmarks, they are complete in a way that the long-standing LPs aren't.

I was lucky enough to be there when the impulse! LPs got purged into the cutout bins, but I think I got Magic City and Pathways To Unknown Worlds before then. It was definitely the cutout bins that brought the Chicago-era Ra to me, and...it was not necessarily confusing, but it took me a good while to regard them as "formative" instead of knowing that they were very real-time/real-place. Huge difference in perception/understanding/imo. So every so often, I revisit Ra...revisit and add, just to fill it out. Thinking in terms of "linear evolution" works with Ra, but only in the most limited/literal kind of way. I like learning to think more in those terms, honestly, pan-chronologially.

Thus the looking at Jazz In Silhouette, I had that on impulse! and never bothered to go for the Evidence CD or anything else until a few weeks ago, when I decided that getting the pile of crap that's on top of my turntable would be more trouble that just getting the damn CD.. But poking around and seeing what the Saturn original LP was, and THEN seeing those liner notes indicating a possible alternative order for Side 1, hey...

It's a project now!

Let me know how yours comes out. I think I know what happened, "Enlightenment"  was kinda "popular" in the then current live shows, so flipping the sides might have made sense to all concerned. But the record ends with a TOTALLY different vibe that way. And that possible alternate order for Side 1...hmmm...

 

[Teasing the Korean]

25 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The Savoy record...I kinda let it slip through the cracks until recently. My bad, for sure. A very provocative collection of material and performances. But it does make a very nice 3-fer with the two that are now on Delmark as The Tom Wilson-Produced Sun Ra, probably coming soon to a PD EuroMusiPorn outlet near you soon. But if you buy your own, get the latest two Delmarks, they are complete in a way that the long-standing LPs aren't.

At the time that I got those two aforementioned CDs, I remember that I had the Delmark Sun Song and Sound of Joy on LP.   I have since gotten the Irwin Chusid versions of these albums, but I have not compared them to the LP versions.  I am still making my way through the massive archive of stuff that Chusid produced.  As you likely know, much of this stuff is from the masters and not vinyl rips like the Evidence CDs.  

Edited August 22, 2021 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Yeah, all that Michael Anderson master tape stuff...glad to go there when practical, but on this end, what's done is mostly done. Saturn stuff...might make a difference on records I don't yet have? We'll see.

Are you sure that the Evidence CDs are all vinyl rips, though? I'm seeing Alton Abraham's name on them, and it was him who got tapes to impulse!. So Evidence, perhaps not master tapes, but vinyl rips?

Just ripped the Secret Code (LOL) version of the LP with that SECRET CODE A-Side. I can't see it working better this way, and can certainly see Ra/Abraham deciding the same after liners went to press, but...who knows. It's all speculation at this point, and not particularly profound speculation at that. But is is fun!

[jazzbo]

I don't know definitively about sources but I have been picking up all the cd releases I can of Ra material under the new reissue team and man when I compare one of the new to an Evidence release. . . there's no comparison, the new is a marked improvement. We're entering into audiophile territory here and though I'd rather have this material in any form than not have it, I can honestly say I enjoy listening to the new versions when I can.

[Teasing the Korean]

38 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Are you sure that the Evidence CDs are all vinyl rips, though? I'm seeing Alton Abraham's name on them, and it was him who got tapes to impulse!. So Evidence, perhaps not master tapes, but vinyl rips?

My understanding is that many of them were vinyl rips, through a network of Sun Ra obsessives who shared their vinyl copies for digitization.  There are some telltale signs along the way.  Maybe not all, but perhaps for some of the more obscure and earlier titles.  

[JSngry]

Ok, just finishing up on the "liner note running order", and leading the album off with "Images" and running Side A like that works. Really well. Where it gets weird is going straight from "Blues At Midnight" into "Velvet" and then into "Saturn". But that's on CD, if that was the LP order and you could take a few minutes/days to flip the record over, that might work just fine. And definitely, ending on "Ancient Aiethopia"...that jsut works for me. They got that right on Saturn, for sure.

Not sure if I'm ready for Saturn LPs in "audiophile quality", but I'm glad it exists for future generations (and maybe the next go-round...or maybe this one...something like The Nubians Of Plutonia will appeal in that quality of sound. Right now, the "distance" of the Saturn LP sound is a part of how I'm still processing that music. I've built the sound of those records into the sound of that music. Not sure I'm ready - or needing - to make a new bifurcation. Yet.

Also, I'm willing to accept that there are some vinyl rips in the Evidence, especially on The Singles. But I have both the Evidence & Strut iterations of that concept, and...again, there's a different set of esthetics at play in considering the sound of the music and the sound of the record. I can dig both, but it kind of pisses me off that in order to get the full range of "Sun Ra Singles", I still have to have both - and that to get all the material that either generated or  created all of THAT, I still need to get some even more shit, some of which, like the Atavistic stuff, is wonderful, but some of which, like the Norton Doo-Wop stuff, is just...trying. At some point...old 45s sounding like what they are is ok with me.

I grew up on 45s, my fiorst records were various 45s and Little Golden Record 78s. LPs were what my parents had, and "hi fi" was nothing that any of us had. so, you know, the die was cast early enough to never be completely re-cast.

Anyway, back to Jazz In Silhouette, I think I like the "liner note" running order of Side A just fine, opening up with a solo piano intro is a very good fit. And I definitely like the Saturn A-B side order better. It's only on that "in between" stuff that this changing around gets sticky, and quite possibly that's because of the CD format. I know I've had more than one Blue Note/etc record lose a little magic for me on CD just because programming LP sides, individually, is an art unto itself, even/especially something as "abstract" as a collection of jazz vehicles from various sources dictated at least in part by commerce.

Anyway,...check it out if you got the time and the inclination.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

Well, I tried swapping the side order, and the sequence didn't work quite as well for me.  I always considered "Ancient Aethiopia" to be the centerpiece of the album, so placing it at the end of side 1 seems like a perfect location.

On the other hand, if the goal is a lure an unsuspecting jazz fan with more conservative taste into Sun Ra's orbit, starting with side 2 might work better.   But I'll keep it as-is.

[bertrand]

21 hours ago, JSngry said:

Ok, just finishing up on the "liner note running order", and leading the album off with "Images" and running Side A like that works. Really well. Where it gets weird is going straight from "Blues At Midnight" into "Velvet" and then into "Saturn". But that's on CD, if that was the LP order and you could take a few minutes/days to flip the record over, that might work just fine. And definitely, ending on "Ancient Aiethopia"...that jsut works for me. They got that right on Saturn, for sure.

Not sure if I'm ready for Saturn LPs in "audiophile quality", but I'm glad it exists for future generations (and maybe the next go-round...or maybe this one...something like The Nubians Of Plutonia will appeal in that quality of sound. Right now, the "distance" of the Saturn LP sound is a part of how I'm still processing that music. I've built the sound of those records into the sound of that music. Not sure I'm ready - or needing - to make a new bifurcation. Yet.

Also, I'm willing to accept that there are some vinyl rips in the Evidence, especially on The Singles. But I have both the Evidence & Strut iterations of that concept, and...again, there's a different set of esthetics at play in considering the sound of the music and the sound of the record. I can dig both, but it kind of pisses me off that in order to get the full range of "Sun Ra Singles", I still have to have both - and that to get all the material that either generated or  created all of THAT, I still need to get some even more shit, some of which, like the Atavistic stuff, is wonderful, but some of which, like the Norton Doo-Wop stuff, is just...trying. At some point...old 45s sounding like what they are is ok with me.

I grew up on 45s, my fiorst records were various 45s and Little Golden Record 78s. LPs were what my parents had, and "hi fi" was nothing that any of us had. so, you know, the die was cast early enough to never be completely re-cast.

Anyway, back to Jazz In Silhouette, I think I like the "liner note" running order of Side A just fine, opening up with a solo piano intro is a very good fit. And I definitely like the Saturn A-B side order better. It's only on that "in between" stuff that this changing around gets sticky, and quite possibly that's because of the CD format. I know I've had more than one Blue Note/etc record lose a little magic for me on CD just because programming LP sides, individually, is an art unto itself, even/especially something as "abstract" as a collection of jazz vehicles from various sources dictated at least in part by commerce.

Anyway,...check it out if you got the time and the inclination.

 

Is it possible the song titles were jumbled rather than the running order?

[JSngry]

Try swapping not just the side order, but the track order on the new Side 1 to match the liner note order. I was surprised how well that worked.

For me, anything after "Ancient Ethiopia" is anti-climactic,So, on LP, no biggie, play one side at a time, you can have it the Saturn way or the impulse! way, it's Burger King, have it YOUR way!. But for CD, I like it ending that way - and with the revised Side 1 track order, it makes for a really nice arc, starting and ending up quietly (although totally different types of quiet), and building up and then down from that big hot stuff in the middle.

 

27 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Is it possible the song titles were jumbled rather than the running order?

Of course it's possible. But...it doesn't seem like Ra to not know the names of his own compositions.

I'm a little bit surprised that, with all the Ra-obsessive research/commentary out there that this side-switch and possible even track-order switch has never been researched or commented on other than, hey, it happened (and then only with the side-switch). Alton Abraham lived long enough to have been asked about all of it.

[T.D.]

53 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Well, I tried swapping the side order, and the sequence didn't work quite as well for me.  I always considered "Ancient Aethiopia" to be the centerpiece of the album, so placing it at the end of side 1 seems like a perfect location.

On the other hand, if the goal is a lure an unsuspecting jazz fan with more conservative taste into Sun Ra's orbit, starting with side 2 might work better.   But I'll keep it as-is.

I vaguely remember (around 40 years ago), a friend with some recording experience saying that the last track on side 1 was the place to put the blockbuster tune (or big hit). I thought that was plausible.

But my memory could be off, or the saying might be an old urban legend (or even outright BS). 

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, T.D. said:

I vaguely remember (around 40 years ago), a friend with some recording experience saying that the last track on side 1 was the place to put the blockbuster tune (or big hit). I thought that was plausible.

But my memory could be off, or the saying might be an old urban legend (or even outright BS). 

There is no flat-out formula for how those things work, although in general, approaches to sequencing LPs often included strong openers and closers on each side.  And the weakest track was usually buried in the middle of side 2.  

[JSngry]

7 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

There is no flat-out formula for how those things work, although in general, approaches to sequencing LPs often included strong openers and closers on each side.  And the weakest track was usually buried in the middle of side 2.  

That's very true with Blue Note. You know you had a REALLY good record when you could play Side 2 and not have any kind of a lag.

CDs only emphasized this.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

That's very true with Blue Note. You know you had a REALLY good record when you could play Side 2 and not have any kind of a lag.

Well, some of those Blue Note albums had only four tracks - two per side.  So if there was a weak track, there was no place to hide it.  

[JSngry]

HA! But those were the REALLY good ones!

Think I just figured out why the Saturn LP A-Side running order switched from that in the liner notes, and it's pretty obivious - gongs.

With "Enlightenment" leading off side-A, there's a single gong to begin the record, and with "Ancient Aethiopia" ending side-B, there's  many gongs to end it.

So, that's that, possibly, maybe.

I like "Blues At Midnight" being the midpoint of the record, too. Like, almost literally mid-night (because this is all a dark journey, right, for the People Of The Sun). Like, you go on a journey in search of "Enlightenment" (and has anybody noticed how that piano intro mirrors "Echoes Of Harlem"?), ends up in " "Ancient Aethiopia", like starting in the present and ending up in the ancient/future (sound familiar?), one gong in the beginning, many gongs at the end, we've made it (on this record, anyway) and smack dab in the middle (because midnight is noon, right?) there's this longass (almost) jam session that either dies or lives to keep going. What happens is obvious, it keeps going - to the other side!

It's easy to overthink this, and god knows, I love doing it. But for somebody like Sun Ra, who had ALL kinds of layers to his meaning(s), I don't feel bad at all in thinking about it in these terms.

So...what happened at impulse!? The story about that whole deal (per Ed Michel) makes it sound like, Ra & Abraham hardballed a deal, dropped off some tapes, took the money and left. So maybe nobody at that point cared about that, that was one world, theirs was another, and they got what they had come for.

The whole Ra thing...so many unified conflicting layers...true visionary, true hustler, Independent Black Entrepreneur, no desire for long-range profit, a mass of contradictions. Even without all the great music...one of the more interesting 20th Century Americans, period. A bit of what we all were, are and will probably always be, right there in this one world.

And Alton Abraham...did anybody really ever get a handle on THAT guy?

 

 

[JSngry]

And now I have made myself dizzy...the impulse! album DID open with "Enlightenment"...the Saturn opened with "Hours After" which is yet another variant...but the Saturn still ends with "Ancient Aethiopia", so, there's that.

as opposed to:

So the gong theory holds up as album opener/ender, but on a per side program, the gongs are all on one side, be it Side 1 or Side 2.

But there's that liner note implied running order...there's either a coded meaning here, a basic lo-budget process QC fail at work every step of the way, or....both?

Somebody should have figured this out by now...

 

 

[JSngry]

Looked at the dead wax on my impulse! LP, and the matrix #s are aligned with the new side order.

But...on the new Side 1, there's a "2" in a circle, and there's a "1" in a circle on the other side, the new Side 2.

None of my other impulse! Ra LPs have this (not that I've found, yet), so...what's up with THAT?

Looking at the sun Ra Bandcamp page, they's stuck with this revised side order, but without any acknowledgement or explanation. No other Saturn LP has issued with this transposed side order...why is that?

Ra-obsessives...I'd think this would have been at least noticed/commented on by now?

[mjazzg]

Interchangeable from the off? 

[JSngry]

Not until it came over to impulse! So, one way for 10+ years. And then, once changed, never changed back. And the dead wax thing on my impulse! LP, not sure what that is.

Does Michael D. Anderson have time for something silly(?) like this, and if so, does he take emails from strangers?

 

[Teasing the Korean]

I never even knew that impulse!  released Jazz in Silhouette.