John Coltrane - Love Supreme: Live in Seattle

[JSngry]

McCoy was innately conservative, was until the day he died.. Elvin's breaking point was being asked to play with Rashied. Can't blame him for that, he was Elvin Jones!

Pharoah was doing what he was hired to do - pick up the "higher partials" when Trane gave out, much as Trane had done with Miles a decade earlier.. Pharoah could do that, Trane couldn't. It's very much a saxophone technique thing, overtones, different fingerings, all that. Nothing random at all about it, it's VERY controlled, totally about knowing the isntrument. Like McCoy, Trane's technique was by that point too "traditional" to start over. But he heard what Ayler was doing and knew that it had to happen, just had to. Thus, Pharaoh. Unlike McCoy, Trane very much had a need for that.

Pharaoh could play his instrument quite well then, and he got better. I think the time with Trane actually hampered his development, because his role was so NOT about doing the harmonic development thing, and if the ESP record is any indication, he was still very much developing in that area of his playing.His records REALLY started sucking after a while, apparently he had some pretty serious depression issues, but he came back out of it. He's a monster player.

Here's something from later, when McCoy started processing his hair and waering "snazzy" suits and shit. None of that for Pharoah!

 

[Guy Berger]

The opening track from Live in Seattle, “Cosmos”, showcases that band at its best.  Like Sun Ship with extra, raucous horns.  IMHO the biggest issue w/LiS is the diffuseness of the music.  Not a problem with Kulu Se Mamá or Meditations.

[JSngry]

  On 8/15/2021 at 2:38 AM, felser said:

 "Om" has always struck me as a bad acid trip which should have stayed in the can.

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Don't know about either of those points, but it's a curiosity for me. not sure why it was such an early posthumous release...well, I am...going for the hippie market. hippies gullible then, Boomers gullible now, a lot of the same people.

Bob Theile married Theresa Brewer, not Angela Davis, dig. Not that he should have, hell, not that he COULD have, LOL. But faddism is the enemy of discernemnt, although acid is not necessarily the enemy of good playing.

  On 8/15/2021 at 3:28 AM, Guy Berger said:

The opening track from Live in Seattle, “Cosmos”, showcases that band at its best.  Like Sun Ship with extra, raucous horns.  IMHO the biggest issue w/LiS is the diffuseness of the music.  Not a problem with Kulu Se Mamá or Meditations.

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I'm very much a fan of ...Vanguard Again, especially "Naima". Especially Pharoah...his most "vocal" playing ever, perhaps, at least from this early period.

And the full Live In Japan...don't know that I'd say that I'm a "fan" of it per se, but I do find it very...compelling, just not all once, becuase it wasn't played all at once.

[Pim]

  On 8/15/2021 at 12:15 AM, Guy Berger said:

Has been circulating as a bootleg for 15-20 years.

if you have Live in Seattle you know what to expect in terms of the music.  Coltrane is great but I have mixed feelings about the rest of the ensemble

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Well I know that one bootleg but I doubt it’s that. Audio quality is so immensely bad I don’t think even the best engineer could make something out of it. And I don’t see Impulse! releasing such a product.

[JSngry]

  On 8/15/2021 at 4:37 AM, Pim said:

Well I know that one bootleg but I doubt it’s that. Audio quality is so immensely bad I don’t think even the best engineer could make something out of it. And I don’t see Impulse! releasing such a product.

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Unless Ravi has a better source tape...but I really hope that this is something else...it almost has to be, right?

[felser]

  On 8/15/2021 at 3:32 AM, JSngry said:

Don't know about either of those points, but it's a curiosity for me. not sure why it was such an early posthumous release...well, I am...going for the hippie market. hippies gullible then, Boomers gullible now, a lot of the same people.

Bob Theile married Theresa Brewer, not Angela Davis, dig. Not that he should have, hell, not that he COULD have, LOL. But faddism is the enemy of discernemnt, although acid is not necessarily the enemy of good playing.

I'm very much a fan of ...Vanguard Again, especially "Naima". Especially Pharoah...his most "vocal" playing ever, perhaps, at least from this early period.

And the full Live In Japan...don't know that I'd say that I'm a "fan" of it per se, but I do find it very...compelling, just not all once, becuase it wasn't played all at once.

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I like Alice's playing on those albums.

[Pim]

  On 8/15/2021 at 4:45 AM, JSngry said:

Unless Ravi has a better source tape...but I really hope that this is something else...it almost has to be, right?

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I’ve got a feeling it is. Doesn’t ‘The John Coltrane Reference’ mention any other recorded Seattle concerts? Someone around here with that book?

[John L]

  On 8/15/2021 at 3:32 AM, JSngry said:

 

I'm very much a fan of ...Vanguard Again, especially "Naima". Especially Pharoah...his most "vocal" playing ever, perhaps, at least from this early period.

 

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Very interesting.  Pharoah following Trane on Naima from Vanguard Again always struck me as one of the great anticlimaxes in recorded jazz.   I guess that I will have to re-listen.

[mjzee]

  On 8/15/2021 at 4:58 AM, Pim said:

I’ve got a feeling it is. Doesn’t ‘The John Coltrane Reference’ mention any other recorded Seattle concerts? Someone around here with that book?

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I have the book.  The only dates listed are 9/30/65 @ the Penthouse, and 10/1/65 @ Lynnwood, WA (which was released as Om).  Re the Penthouse date, the session notes state: "Radio broadcast, 9:30 - 10:00 p.m.  The broadcast was probably the first set of the night (although this isn't confirmed; the newspaper ads don't indicate when the first set was scheduled to start).  Simultaneous live recording session by Jan Kurtis, who recorded most if not all of the group's performance on this night."

The book lists the concert as follows; I've indicated which titles are unissued:

untitled original (25:06) uni

bass duet (12:04) uni

Cosmos (10:51)

bass solo (00:15) uni

thumb piano solo (02:40) uni

Evolution (35:58)

Tapestry in Sound (inc) (06:07)

Out of This World (23:40)

Body and Soul (21:27)

Afro Blue (inc) (34:40)

Afro Blue (ending) (inc) (17:33) uni

Lush Life (10:07) uni

My Favorite Things (inc) (10:23) uni

 

[Pim]

  On 8/15/2021 at 4:02 PM, mjzee said:

I have the book.  The only dates listed are 9/30/65 @ the Penthouse, and 10/1/65 @ Lynnwood, WA (which was released as Om).  Re the Penthouse date, the session notes state: "Radio broadcast, 9:30 - 10:00 p.m.  The broadcast was probably the first set of the night (although this isn't confirmed; the newspaper ads don't indicate when the first set was scheduled to start).  Simultaneous live recording session by Jan Kurtis, who recorded most if not all of the group's performance on this night."

The book lists the concert as follows; I've indicated which titles are unissued:

untitled original (25:06) uni

bass duet (12:04) uni

Cosmos (10:51)

bass solo (00:15) uni

thumb piano solo (02:40) uni

Evolution (35:58)

Tapestry in Sound (inc) (06:07)

Out of This World (23:40)

Body and Soul (21:27)

Afro Blue (inc) (34:40)

Afro Blue (ending) (inc) (17:33) uni

Lush Life (10:07) uni

My Favorite Things (inc) (10:23) uni

 

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Mmm okay. I suppose those are the titles that already have been released, both officially as unofficially?

[felser]

can't wait for 12 minutes of "Bass Duet"  .   Bet that really went down big with the club crowd.

Re: Pharoah in that period.  'Tauhid' is a very interesting album, and his playing on it does not sound like what he was doing with Trane.

[JSngry]

Not everybody loves Jimmy Garrison.

No accounting for that, but...oh well.

[bertrand]

Could there have been other dates at the Penthouse just not listed in the book? I doubt he did just one night.

[mjzee]

  On 8/15/2021 at 8:53 PM, bertrand said:

Could there have been other dates at the Penthouse just not listed in the book? I doubt he did just one night.

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The book is pretty good about researching newspaper ads of the time.  I think if there were other dates, it would have been noted.

[Late]

  On 8/15/2021 at 6:59 PM, felser said:

Can't wait for 12 minutes of "Bass Duet"  . 

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What the Coltrane Reference doesn't mention is that they're actually bass harmonicas.

[JSngry]

Seattle's not a small town. Not even then!

  On 8/15/2021 at 9:46 PM, Late said:

What the Coltrane Reference doesn't mention is that they're actually bass harmonicas.

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Oh, so we get that elusive but inevitable Sun Ship/Pet Sounds mindmeld, great!

[Late]

  On 8/15/2021 at 9:50 PM, JSngry said:

Oh, so we get that elusive but inevitable Sun Ship/Pet Sounds mindmeld, great!

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Brian Wilson was at the gig. He lent Donald Garrett his harmonica.

[JSngry]

And now WE can be there too!

Space Age Technology, y'all!

[Late]

  On 8/15/2021 at 9:56 PM, JSngry said:

Space Age Technology ... !

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It's all about lasers and Lifesavers.

[bertrand]

  On 8/15/2021 at 9:22 PM, mjzee said:

The book is pretty good about researching newspaper ads of the time.  I think if there were other dates, it would have been noted.

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Oh, so they list not just dates that were known to be recorded, but any known performances, OK. Still possible that there are dates that were not known at publication time. I need to get this at some point, but it is the kind of book I always postpone getting because I know that the day after I get it, a new expanded edition will be announced LOL.

That is exactly what happened with a Love A supreme. I held off on getting the 2-CD set, and right after I got it, the 3-CD set was announced. Grrrr...

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by bertrand

[mjzee]

  On 8/15/2021 at 10:59 PM, bertrand said:

Oh, so they list not just dates that were known to be recorded, but any known performances, OK. Still possible that there are dates that were not known at publication time. I need to get this at some point, but it is the kind of book I always postpone getting because I know that the day after I guy it, a new expanded edition will be announced LOL.

That is exactly what happened with a Love A supreme. I held off on getting the 2-CD set, and right after I got it, the 3-CD set was announced. Grrrr...

 

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And it's pricey (currently $79.95 on Amazon).  Still, I'm glad to have it.

[John L]

  On 8/15/2021 at 9:22 PM, mjzee said:

The book is pretty good about researching newspaper ads of the time.  I think if there were other dates, it would have been noted.

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Well, the edition of the book that I have says that Coltrane was booked a whole week at the Penthouse from September 27-October 7, 1965.  In that case, other recordings could exist. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by John L

[hbbfam]

  On 8/15/2021 at 11:09 PM, mjzee said:

And it's pricey (currently $79.95 on Amazon).  Still, I'm glad to have it.

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I am confused.  Is there a 3CD release?  Or are you talking about 3lps?  And is this a new release or the 2011 re-issued?

[bertrand]

  On 8/16/2021 at 1:04 AM, John L said:

Well, the edition of the book that I have says that Coltrane was booked a whole week at the Penthouse from September 27-October 7, 1965.  In that case, other recordings could exist. 

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I thought it was a whole week...

[felser]

  On 8/16/2021 at 2:56 AM, hbbfam said:

I am confused.  Is there a 3CD release?  Or are you talking about 3lps?  And is this a new release or the 2011 re-issued?

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Talking about A Love Supreme 3cd issue can. 2012, which has about 15 mins of extra outtakes not on the 2CD set (which had room for them).  Milk that sacred cow 'til it"s dry...

 

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