Sonny Stitt. Why didn´t he become as famous as Dexter?

[Gheorghe]

15 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

Gheorghe,

I like "Homecoming", but it is not among my favorite Dexter Gordon albums. My opinion on the rhythm section is very different that what you wrote. Ronnie Mathews was a fine jazz player, but to my ears Cedar Walton, George Cables and Kirk Lightsey were far more interesting. I also much prefer Rufus Reid to Stafford James. Reid's sound and solo playing are top level in my view. Stafford, like Ronnie Mathews was a good player, but never did anything that stood out for me.

Different strokes ...

 

Sure, if there were not different tastes, there would not be an audience for all that great music. 

And how is your impressions about "Sophisticated Giant" (the album, not the book) ? As you see, I also had my own impression, which may be different from other ones. How is your´s ? 

[Peter Friedman]

On 3/19/2022 at 0:13 AM, Gheorghe said:

Sure, if there were not different tastes, there would not be an audience for all that great music. 

And how is your impressions about "Sophisticated Giant" (the album, not the book) ? As you see, I also had my own impression, which may be different from other ones. How is your´s ? 

Pulled "Sophisticated Giant" off the shelf yesterday and listened to it so I could reply to your question.

I found the album a mixed bag. Some of the tracks I highly enjoyed, and others not so much. Perhaps my least favorite track was "Laura". The arrangement was overpowering and Dexter's solo was, as you indicated not up front enough and also was uninteresting. "How Insensitive" was another below average track. The piano work by George Cables stood out on "You're Blasé".

The two more swinging tunes - "Red Top" and "Fried Bananas" were  both very good and my favorite tracks. The arrangements worked well with Dexter's strong solo playing.  There were also fine trumpet and vibes solos.

Rufus Reid was excellent on every tune. his sound and swing were impressive. George Cables had a number of excellent solos as well.

So in summary, not one of Dexter's very best albums, but one I enjoyed nonetheless.  

[John Tapscott]

36 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

Pulled "Sophisticated Giant" off the shelf yesterday and listened to it so I could reply to your question.

I found the album a mixed bag. Some of the tracks I highly enjoyed, and others not so much. Perhaps my least favorite track was "Laura". The arrangement was overpowering and Dexter's solo was, as you indicated not up front enough and also was uninteresting. "How Insensitive" was another below average track. The piano work by George Cables stood out on "You're Blasé".

The two more swinging tunes - "Red Top" and "Fried Bananas" were  both very good and my favorite tracks. The arrangements worked well with Dexter's strong solo playing.  There were also fine trumpet and vibes solos.

Rufus Reid was excellent on every tune. his sound and swing were impressive. George Cables had a number of excellent solos as well.

So in summary, not one of Dexter's very best albums, but one I enjoyed nonetheless.  

I really liked  "Sophisticated Giant" when it came out in the late 70's, but I was mildly disappointed after listening to it recently on Gordon's Columbia box set. Kind of lifeless.  On the other hand, the "Gotham City" session, which was beset with problems in the studio, is a really fine recording, which I had not remembered.  Time does change one's perception. 

[Gheorghe]

14 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

Pulled "Sophisticated Giant" off the shelf yesterday and listened to it so I could reply to your question.

I found the album a mixed bag. Some of the tracks I highly enjoyed, and others not so much. Perhaps my least favorite track was "Laura". The arrangement was overpowering and Dexter's solo was, as you indicated not up front enough and also was uninteresting. "How Insensitive" was another below average track. The piano work by George Cables stood out on "You're Blasé".

The two more swinging tunes - "Red Top" and "Fried Bananas" were  both very good and my favorite tracks. The arrangements worked well with Dexter's strong solo playing.  There were also fine trumpet and vibes solos.

Rufus Reid was excellent on every tune. his sound and swing were impressive. George Cables had a number of excellent solos as well.

So in summary, not one of Dexter's very best albums, but one I enjoyed nonetheless.  

Thank you so much for your review. I love to read things like that, So for example on "Laura" you have about the same impressions I have, as on "How Intensitive" .... 
Yeah, the swing tunes, maybe "Red Top" is a good simple tune for some big band arrangment at the one here is not bad, the choose of the chords on the band sections, but on "Bananas" the original form (length of bars) is augmented, which busts the form of the song which anyway is an easy thing, based on "It could Happen to You" ..

About Rufus Reid: Yes, I can understand many people like his sound, because there is a great deal of musicians and audiences who like a very soft, long sounding bass. Art Pepper loved those kinds of basses, Chet Baker liked them, it fitted to the music of Chet Baker very very well. 
What I like more, is the more percussive style, like Stafford James on "Homecoming" and Percy Heath on "Gotham", I mean the soft bass sounds of a Rufus Reid sounded more like "doo doo doo doo" and I like it if I hear the sound of plucking  the strings, like  "doop doop doop doop". 

14 hours ago, John Tapscott said:

I really liked  "Sophisticated Giant" when it came out in the late 70's, but I was mildly disappointed after listening to it recently on Gordon's Columbia box set. Kind of lifeless.  On the other hand, the "Gotham City" session, which was beset with problems in the studio, is a really fine recording, which I had not remembered.  Time does change one's perception. 

Gotham City has a special meaning to me: It lasted a bit longer between "Great Encounters" and "Gotham City". Gotham City was advertised with a lot of flyin papers you could see in jazz profile record shops and clubs, something like "next Dexter album will be in stock soon, and with praising that he plays with Blakey and so on...." 
I phoned every day my record dealer and when he finally told me it is there, I hurried to the shop and was about the first one to buy it. 
And then I went to the "Jazz Spelunke" were they played records when they didnt have live music, and they asked me "you got it ?", and then we spinned it and listened to it. 
 

What problems were in the studio ? I never heard any stories about that recording, and Maxine does not mention nothing in her book....

[danasgoodstuff]

I'm relistening to Sophisticated Giant.  I quite like this mid-sized outing.  Opening with Laura seems like an odd choice though.

(151) Dexter Gordon and Sonny Stitt: 1962 Rare Session - YouTube

I really would like to hear this whole session with Dexter and Sonny, what Alfred thought at the time is largely beside the point to me.

[John Tapscott]

13 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

 

Gotham City has a special meaning to me: It lasted a bit longer between "Great Encounters" and "Gotham City". Gotham City was advertised with a lot of flyin papers you could see in jazz profile record shops and clubs, something like "next Dexter album will be in stock soon, and with praising that he plays with Blakey and so on...." 
I phoned every day my record dealer and when he finally told me it is there, I hurried to the shop and was about the first one to buy it. 
And then I went to the "Jazz Spelunke" were they played records when they didnt have live music, and they asked me "you got it ?", and then we spinned it and listened to it. 
 

What problems were in the studio ? I never heard any stories about that recording, and Maxine does not mention nothing in her book....

Producer Michael Cuscuna mentions them in the notes to the Columbia box set. Lots of big egos involved. Cuscuna had asked the musicians to rehearse some Cedar Walton tunes the day before the session. When Cuscuna flew in from Europe the day of the session, and found out they hadn't rehearsed, it seems  he was none too happy. Finally, Art Blakey came to Michael's defense and got the musicians to lay something down.  It's surprising the session happened at all, let alone come off as well as it did. You will notice that it has rather short playing time. 

Edited March 22, 2022 by John Tapscott

[Gheorghe]

10 hours ago, John Tapscott said:

Producer Michael Cuscuna mentions them in the notes to the Columbia box set. Lots of big egos involved. Cuscuna had asked the musicians to rehearse some Cedar Walton tunes the day before the session. When Cuscuna flew in from Europe the day of the session, and found out they hadn't rehearsed, it seems  he was none too happy. Finally, Art Blakey came to Michael's defense and got the musicians to lay something down.  It's surprising the session happened at all, let alone come off as well as it did. You will notice that it has rather short playing time. 

Yes, I also was astonished it has so short playing time. But I liked the drive on it, Percy Heath I like much more than the other soft  and long tone bassists . 
And yeah, Maxine didn´t mention a lot of things in her book. 
And there is some contradictory between british author Stan Britt who wrote a very fine book on Dexter, Maxine tells, that in the night of his 60th birthday and Vanguard it was the last time he played. I saw Dexter scheduled for a two weeks gig and Rick´s Café in Chicago few month later, and Britt describes a gig in Finlanda in early 1984 with a Radio Orchestra, where Dexter became sick and had to fly home, and later the band flew to Marocco, were they didn´t get paid and Dexter was too sick to get through a whole set, and that would have been the time when he disbanded.....

[John L]

On 3/8/2022 at 9:50 AM, Gheorghe said:

On some bootleg label there was a 2 CD set of Dexter at Vanguard in 1983. It was recorded on 27 februarie 1983, when Dexter celebrated his 60´s birthday. It´s quite painful to hear, in any case much worse than what @mhatta posted from 1988 in Japan. The playing list is among others "Secret Love" which was also the first tune on the terrible performance I saw just 2 weeks before, than it has the obligatory "As Time goes By", which is only a shadow of the wonderful version on "Manhattan Symphony" only a few years earlier, it has "Soy Califa" much to fast for what was Dexter able at that time, a rambling performance of "Hi Fly", a tune that sounded so great on "Gotham City", and I think it ends with "Jumpin´ Blues"...
I had bought it out of curiosity but never listened to it again....

OK, I finally listened to this out of curiosity.     I agree that this is certainly well below Dexter Gordon's usual standards of excellence, although his playing here is still arguably professionally sound.  This was his 60th birthday celebration that was not meant to be recorded.  So we might cut him some slack if he had a few extra drinks that night.   I also note that there are exceedingly few other Dexter Gordon recordings from 1983-1984, bootleg or otherwise.  I don't even know of any others.  Was it a down time for medical or other reasons?   From his spoken voice, it would seem that he is struggling with something. 

Edited March 27, 2022 by John L

[Gheorghe]

43 minutes ago, John L said:

OK, I finally listened to this out of curiosity.     I agree that this is certainly well below Dexter Gordon's usual standards of excellence, although his playing here is still arguably professionally sound.  This was his 60th birthday celebration that was not meant to be recorded.  So we might cut him some slack if he had a few extra drinks that night.   I also note that there are exceedingly few other Dexter Gordon recordings from 1983-1984, bootleg or otherwise.  I don't even know of any others.  Was it a down time for medical or other reasons?   From his spoken voice, it would seem that he is struggling with something. 

I think it was a radio recording or a soundboard recording. I also don´t know about other recordings after the birthday celebration. Maxine writes that it was the last time he played until his playing in the film and a handful of performances in public after the film. 
So Stan Britt´s story in his book "Long Tall Dexter" about his gig early in 1984 in Finnland and later in Marocco maybe were just "fiction" like the "Night in Brussel" in Ross Russell´s book "Bird" ? 

I don´t know whom I should believe. 

The only source of later activities is  a 2 weeks gig of Dexter in Mai 1983 at "Rick´s Café" in Chicago, (in the spring edition of Down Beat from that year). 2 weeks Dexter followed by 2 weeks Billy Eckstine !). Maybe some users from Chicago might know more about it, or was it chancelled....

In 1984 during a gig I remember that some of the playing or visiting musicians told a story that he "went to Mexico and married the former wife of Woody Shaw", this story really sounded strange to me, especially the story about the marriage. 
I´m not necessarly the reader of "love stories", but Maxine´s by somebody her described writing style as being "workman-like" doesn´t reveal anything about the romantic side of it. It sound´s much more like a business relation.....

[mhatta]

Thorbjorn Sjogren's Long Tall Dexter listed three more gigs in 1983:

Jan. 21, 1983, "Teatro Turismo", Riccione, Italy (radio broadcast)

Feb. 2, 1983, "Jazzhus Montmartre", Copenhagen, Denmark (TV and private tapes)

(Feb. 27, 1983, "Village Vanguard" Birthday live)

Summer, 1983, "Paul Masson's Vineyard", Saratoga, CA (Spanish TV)

And one from 1984:

Jul. 18, 1984, Venue unknown, Burghausen, Germany (radio broadcast)

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by mhatta

[Niko]

here are some more from newspapers.com and delpher.nl (not exhaustive)

19 January 1983, Meervaart, Amsterdam

11 February 1983, Bimhuis, Amsterdam
22 March 1983 Blues Alley, Baltimore
22 April 1983 Baker's Keyboard Lounge, Detroit
26 July 1983 Concert in Kansas cancelled due to a recent Diabetes diagnosis
21 October 1983 Chameleon's Gardens in Philadelphia

there definitely seems to be a slowdown from the summer of 1983 onwards

Edited March 27, 2022 by Niko

[John L]

OK, thanks.  Clearly, he kept very active during the first half of 1983.  

[Gheorghe]

On 26.3.2022 at 11:31 AM, mhatta said:

Thorbjorn Sjogren's Long Tall Dexter listed three more gigs in 1983:

Jan. 21, 1983, "Teatro Turismo", Riccione, Italy (radio broadcast)

Feb. 2, 1983, "Jazzhus Montmartre", Copenhagen, Denmark (TV and private tapes)

(Feb. 27, 1983, "Village Vanguard" Birthday live)

Summer, 1983, "Paul Masson's Vineyard", Saratoga, CA (Spanish TV)

And one from 1984:

Jul. 18, 1984, Venue unknown, Burghausen, Germany (radio broadcast)

 

 

23 hours ago, Niko said:

here are some more from newspapers.com and delpher.nl (not exhaustive)

19 January 1983, Meervaart, Amsterdam

11 February 1983, Bimhuis, Amsterdam
22 March 1983 Blues Alley, Baltimore
22 April 1983 Baker's Keyboard Lounge, Detroit
26 July 1983 Concert in Kansas cancelled due to a recent Diabetes diagnosis
21 October 1983 Chameleon's Gardens in Philadelphia

there definitely seems to be a slowdown from the summer of 1983 onwards

The early 1983 dates must have been from the same tour when I witnessed that embarrising performance, late ianuarie or early februarie 1983. 

In Amsterdam, yes I heard about that gig at the Bimhuis, but I also heard, that Dexter would have been scheduled for a Timeless recording together with Chet Baker. But Dexter couldn not be found , so Dexters rhythm section recorded and Chet sang and played on 2 numbers. 

A review from Jazz Podium from that time, I think it was in Köln at a famous club, was also very reveiling. I remember they wrote that for the first set Dexter was missing and only the trio played. During intermissions everybody might have asked where is Dexter and finally he came on stage, terribly drunk and shabbily dressed. He had glimpses of his old style and mighty sounds, but his pharasing was incoerent and his announcements were ununderstandable and the writer stated, that the end of Dexter´s career might be near. 

I might really wonder if that gig at Burghausen in 1984 took place. I doubt it, because I never saw something advertised or scheduled, and since it´s near to the Austrian borderline we might have gone there to try it out if he was in better form. But maybe it was cancelled before it would have been scheduled.....

[Niko]

Dexter was supposed to play in Madrid on 28 October 1983 but had to be replaced by Johnny Griffin (link, link), for the two Dutch concerts in early 1983, I found reviews (here and here - in Dutch obviously) which I would consider positive without being particularly enthusiastic ("still good", "no surprises")... 

[Gheorghe]

17 hours ago, Niko said:

Dexter was supposed to play in Madrid on 28 October 1983 but had to be replaced by Johnny Griffin (link, link), for the two Dutch concerts in early 1983, I found reviews (here and here - in Dutch obviously) which I would consider positive without being particularly enthusiastic ("still good", "no surprises")... 

Thank you for those links. Maybe he played a bit better in Netherlands or he had more friendly critics, since what I had to witness in the same time (same tour) was so weak it is one of the saddest memories I had in an entire live of jazz listening. It came near to Bird´s "Lover Man" session from 1946 or Bud´s painful performance at Carnegie Hall in 1965, and it was difficult to listen to and to look at Dexter on that occasion. 
I´d like to mention that on this evening three stars of modern jazz were booked, each with his own group (first Johnny Griffin, second Woody Shaw, third Dexter Gordon) and was promised that after the Gordon set, Shaw and Griffin will re-apear on stage to do a three all stars jam, which didn´t happen after Dexter´s desastrous "performance". 

A similar painful event was a completly drunk Sonny Stitt in 1980 (followed the next day by a splendid Dexter Gordon performance). 

In 1983 Woody Shaw was the highlight of the evening and some of the greatest musical impressions I ever had. Four years later in 1987 I saw him in a small club as a single artist booked with locals and it was similar painful as Dexter´s 1983 performance. Again it was due to excessive input of alcool (before the gig, Woody drank many many of those little bottles of "Underberg" and lot of beer) and it was painful to see the former hero looking "down and out"....

In 2005 I saw Griffin for the last time. This time it was not due to abuse of substances, he just was a frail old man and had to sit during the performance and had a very thin tone. It must have been an enormous effort for him to stand through a performance, but Griffin still had some of his positive energy....

Edited March 29, 2022 by Gheorghe