Sonny Stitt. Why didn´t he become as famous as Dexter?

[Steve Reynolds]

4 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

The New Apartment Lounge on 75th if it was on the South Side.

That was it. Plus he must have soloed for 15 plus minutes and it kept getting better. No paucity of ideas. And what a sound especially so up close. 

[Larry Kart]

About "keep getting better," it was characteristic of Von that he would begin by soloing at length, and then toward the end of the piece, after others had soloed, return for a long "summing up" solo in which he would build upon on every motif that he had stated in his first solo. This not only would have bordered on the incredible merely as a feat of memory, but it also was, so it seemed, wholly spontaneous. 

[Steve Reynolds]

8 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

About "keep getting better," it was characteristic of Von that he would begin by soloing at length, and then toward the end of the piece, after others had soloed, return for a long "summing up" solo in which he would build upon on every motif that he had stated in his first solo. This not only would have bordered on the incredible merely as a feat of memory, but it also was, so it seemed, wholly spontaneous. 

I was MUCH less experienced as a listener 25 years ago and I don’t remember if he took a second solo on the tune. It did all seem spontaneous and I think the pianist was John Young who was also great. Another aside. I’m SO grateful for my 3 trips to Chicago in the late 90’s (work trips) when I was also able to see Gary Bartz at the Green Mill, 8 Bold Souls at Hot House - the best of the best in my memory) and 2 visits to Velvet Lounge at 2128 1/2 South Indiana Ave where I met Fred Anderson & on my second visit attended as a guest with the late *great* Ulrich and so Fred play the tenor saxophone for the first time.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

20 hours ago, Steve Reynolds said:

I was MUCH less experienced as a listener 25 years ago and I don’t remember if he took a second solo on the tune. It did all seem spontaneous and I think the pianist was John Young who was also great. Another aside. I’m SO grateful for my 3 trips to Chicago in the late 90’s (work trips) when I was also able to see Gary Bartz at the Green Mill, 8 Bold Souls at Hot House - the best of the best in my memory) and 2 visits to Velvet Lounge at 2128 1/2 South Indiana Ave where I met Fred Anderson & on my second visit attended as a guest with the late *great* Ulrich and so Fred play the tenor saxophone for the first time.

In the late 90's, I traveled to Chicago on business many times as well. Unlike you, I was pretty unlucky when it comes to live Jazz. It seemed like every time I went, The Jazz Showcase and The Green Mill had acts playing there that I'd either just seen in Boston or the band was playing Boston when I got back - and I usually already had tickets. Fred Anderson was never playing at the Velvet Lounge during any of my visits either. I never did get a chance to see him or Von Freeman live.

I did get to visit the Jazz Record Mart and Dusty Groove every visit though.

[AllenLowe]

I’m coming a little bit late to the party, but a few things in this regard. It’s very possible that I am the one referred to as harshly disliking Dexter‘s playing. I mentioned it here some years ago and was reamed out, but I still stand by my sense that a lot of his playing is marred by a stoned-out sensibility that never quite catches up with itself. I have heard some late Dexter that is quite profound, but still I never listen to him for pleasure but only for some kind of historical instruction. As for Stitt, In person he could be quite intensive and personal, in his own way. I did have a very difficult encounter with him in Boston at the jazz workshop In the middle 1970s or so. I’m proud to say I told him off, because he was gratuitously nasty. But that’s another story. As for his gladiator-like ability to play in different keys, I have a feeling this is pretty much a myth. I  knew Bobby Buster very well, and he told me this was all bullshit, that Stitt ended up playing in weird concert keys because he refused to transpose tunes when he switched horns; so he might play body and soul on the alto in the alto key of E flat, which would put it in concert G flat, just so he could play it in the same key as he did on tenor. Bobby was pretty adamant about this.

Edited February 27, 2022 by AllenLowe

[Gheorghe]

16 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I’m coming a little bit late to the party, but a few things in this regard. It’s very possible that I am the one referred to as harshly disliking Dexter‘s playing. I mentioned it here some years ago and was reamed out, but I still stand by my sense that a lot of his playing is marred by a stoned-out sensibility that never quite catches up with itself. I have heard some late Dexter that is quite profound, but still I never listen to him for pleasure but only for some kind of historical instruction. As for Stitt, In person he could be quite intensive and personal, in his own way. I did have a very difficult encounter with him in Boston at the jazz workshop In the middle 1970s or so. I’m proud to say I told him off, because he was gratuitously nasty. But that’s another story. As for his gladiator-like ability to play in different keys, I have a feeling this is pretty much a myth. I  knew Bobby Buster very well, and he told me this was all bullshit, that Stitt ended up playing in weird concert keys because he refused to transpose tunes when he switched horns; so he might play body and soul on the alto in the alto key of E flat, which would put it in concert G flat, just so he could play it in the same key as he did on tenor. Bobby was pretty adamant about this.

I knew that I wanted to read your point of view in this thread. 
The interesting thing is, that in those late 70´s there was such a Dexter Gordon hype that I and some friends of mine really jumped on that train. "Manhattan Symphony" was wonderful.  Sure we witnessed great moments, some great concerts here in Austria with the exception of the last time in february 1983 which was a mess.....

A friend from Cehoslovacia went to NY in 1978 and taped two shows of Dexter on July 4th 1978 at Vanguard. I don´t know HOW he could do that, because it was not only a small casetofon with integrated mike, it was recorded with 2 mikes in stereo. When he came back, we heard it on revox or how you called those big things....., this was very good. 

But later, and mostly after reading your critical point of view I gave it a thought and started to listen back to some stuff from then, from another perspective, and started to understand what you mean.  

"Tangerine" sounded much better on the 1972 Prestige album with the same title. Here it seems that Dexter really was loaded. And it´s just too long tracks, to long solos. And somehow it sounds that you wanted when comes the point where it falls a piece. 

"Strollin´".... I never head a concert in which this tune would have been in the repertory, but it sounds much better than Tangerine. But I never heard or read about a Dexter-Horace Silver connection.....

"More than you know" and "Backstage" was almost on every concert. "More than you know" just too slow for my tastes, and Backstage....well everybody here knows how much I like drum solos, but it was always too long..

STITT: Wow I didn´t know about this reason.....refusing to transpose tunes when switching from tenor to alto. I can play in any key but I am a very weak  reader.  I got perfect pitch and can play in any key, but if I "read" a G flat or an E-flat, it has to be a G flat or E-flat. 

[Dub Modal]

On 2/27/2022 at 9:28 AM, AllenLowe said:

playing is marred by a stoned-out sensibility that never quite catches up with itself.

There is no way in the world that I'd ever be able to pick up on this. Can you think of any examples where this is demonstrated? Or, are there contrasts where someone (doesn't have to be Dexter) play with that kind of sensibility, but in which it actually works? 

[AllenLowe]

5 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

There is no way in the world that I'd ever be able to pick up on this. Can you think of any examples where this is demonstrated? Or, are there contrasts where someone (doesn't have to be Dexter) play with that kind of sensibility, but in which it actually works? 

it's pretty much true of everything I have ever heard Dexter play after, say, 1970. And btw, one of his drummers once complained about playing with him, because the rhythm section never knew where the hell he was. Everything he does, to my ears, is so strangely mannered that it's like llstening to a 33 rpm record at 16.

Edited February 28, 2022 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

Was that drummer Eddie Gladden?

[Dub Modal]

1 hour ago, AllenLowe said:

it's pretty much true of everything I have ever heard Dexter play after, say, 1970. And btw, one of his drummers once complained about playing with him, because the rhythm section never knew where the hell he was. Everything he does, to my ears, is so strangely mannered that it's like llstening to a 33 rpm record at 16.

Well, I don't have any post-70 Dex at all, only up to '67. I'll have to seek some out and give it a listen. 

[Gheorghe]

9 hours ago, JSngry said:

Was that drummer Eddie Gladden?

Could be....Eddie was with Dex until the end of his playing career in 1983 which I witnessed. It was a painful thing and I left with embarrased disapointment. 

Dexter´s sets from 1978 - 83 were almost identical. 

If it was a short set , it was 3 tunes, usually a faster start like "It´s You or No One", then the ballad "More than you know" or "As Time goes by" and then a fast blues in B flat. 

If it was a longer set, the second tune would be a medium tempo swing, like "Tangerine" or "Fried Bananas" for example. 

Those fast Blues in B flat.....Dexter played almost every time the same phrases, one of them was always "Here comes the Bride", some cliché  riffs you know from tenor battles, and a lot of one note solo, only the B flat in diferent registers, almost a "one note soloist"......

But .....he had that charisma, the audience loved him and went nuts as soon as he walked on stage or announced a tune.....

[mhatta]

I think one of Sonny Stitt's problems was that he couldn't record a single (or several) masterpiece(s) that could be used as a business card. Dexter Gordon was able to make "Go", "Our Man In Paris", etc.  Everybody knows them.  Of course Sonny made so many (or possibly too many) great records like "Tune Up!", but almost all of them don't get iconic status and are on small labels like Muse...

Art Pepper may not have had one, but he had many enthusiastic fans in Japan.  After his comeback, he was no more "white washed-up" (I think it is his own words) and an artist.  He got a standing ovation almost every time he played in Japan.  I think it had a big impact on stabilizing his unstable ego. I think Art Pepper was happy in the last five years of his life.

Edited March 1, 2022 by mhatta

[JSngry]

I saw Dexter in 1981. It was awesome.  That behind the best thing of his had not yet crossed the line into dissipated dilapidation. One of the most singularly charismatic gigs I've experienced.

He certainly had off nights, and without a doubt, the self-inflicted lifestyle choices came to stay. But before that...when he was on, it was beautiful.

Btw - All praise is due Eddie Gladden.

[Gheorghe]

5 hours ago, mhatta said:

I think one of Sonny Stitt's problems was that he couldn't record a single (or several) masterpiece(s) that could be used as a business card. Dexter Gordon was able to make "Go", "Our Man In Paris", etc.  Everybody knows them.  Of course Sonny made so many (or possibly too many) great records like "Tune Up!", but almost all of them don't get iconic status and are on small labels like Muse...

Art Pepper may not have had one, but he had many enthusiastic fans in Japan.  After his comeback, he was no more "white washed-up" (I think it is his own words) and an artist.  He got a standing ovation almost every time he played in Japan.  I think it had a big impact on stabilizing his unstable ego. I think Art Pepper was happy in the last five years of his life.

Yes, maybe Art Pepper would be worth a separate thread. I know about the standing ovations in Japan, since I have some of his recordings from their.

Back to Gordon: How was his reception in Japan in his last years. I only heard that a concert in Tokyo in 1975 was less successful....

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I saw Dexter in 1981. It was awesome.  That behind the best thing of his had not yet crossed the line into dissipated dilapidation. One of the most singularly charismatic gigs I've experienced.

He certainly had off nights, and without a doubt, the self-inflicted lifestyle choices came to stay. But before that...when he was on, it was beautiful.

Btw - All praise is due Eddie Gladden.

I also saw him in 1981 in good form. As in 1980, when John Heard was a short replacement on bass until David Eubanks arrived. But in general, faster tunes were so laid back it was difficult to find out wether they were together, and ballads were just too slow. His cadenzas, maybe it´s a question of taste, but I heard other tenor players playing better cadenzas. 
Anyway, I didn´t see Dexter in 1982, so the next time was in 1983 and it was hard to recognize the man who had performed in 1980,81. 

[JSngry]

I don't think that Dexter took care of himself, overall, seemed like he was a serial relapser. And that took its toll, no sense in pretending otherwise. But the final toll came later than some are claiming. And before it did, that behind the beat thing could be mesmerizing, as is any sensory experience where you feel like collapse is imminent but never comes. It's why people like rollercoaster and drop rides and stuff like that. People like to play with physics,

Manhattan Symphonie is the last record where the imbalance is under control, imo. And the later run at Prestige was mostly not the best (but there are a few exceptions). Those Steeplechase records are all rock solid.

So at some point, the claim must be conceded on the strength of the evidence, but not nearly as early as 1970. Nooooo….

[Dan Gould]

22 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

There is no way in the world that I'd ever be able to pick up on this. Can you think of any examples where this is demonstrated? Or, are there contrasts where someone (doesn't have to be Dexter) play with that kind of sensibility, but in which it actually works? 

Yeah, I feel like I need the band teacher in Whiplash to demonstrate for me, like he did in the early dragging/rushing scene.

 

[Dub Modal]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

Yeah, I feel like I need the band teacher in Whiplash to demonstrate for me, like he did in the early dragging/rushing scene.

 

Man, that movie...saw it several years ago while staying in Bangkok. The heat was intense and wiped us out nearly every day. One night after grabbing some grilled fish from a road stand, we ate while watching this movie and I told Ms. Modal that the band teacher was basically the heat and we were the pathetic drummer. She agreed. 

[Peter Friedman]

I saw Dexter live 3 times. Don't remember the dates, but the first 2 times (once in Detroit, and the other in Toronto) were soon after he returned to the USA after his long stay in Europe. Both those times Dexter was in great form and the music was wonderful.

The third time I saw he was much later, (also in Toronto) and he was in terrible shape, and his playing was embarrassing. The rhythm section of Kirk Lighsey, David Eubanks and Eddie Gladden were excellent and made up partially for Dexter's terrible performance.

However when it comes to recordings, Dexter reigns supreme over most others of his generation. Most of his Steeplechase and Blue Note albums are , in my view simple fantastic. I also am a large fan of most of his Prestige albums.

Though Sonny Stitt was a fantastic player and I love a number of his recordings, the special chemistry I get from Dexter is not there for me with Stitt.

One area that demonstrates( to me) the difference between Dexter and Stitt is on ballads. Stitt's ballads sound rather routine and nothing special. Stitt is a far more interesting player on medium and up tempo tunes. But Dexter is a ballad player supreme. Many of his ballads grab me deep down.Yet his medium and uptempo playing is also often fabulous.

 

[Larry Kart]

I saw Dexter live fairly often and don't recall a time when he noticeably faltered/was in bad shape. I do recall one time when Ira Gitler, who was present, said that Dexter had gone backstage to perform his "bebop ablutions" (i.e. get high).

[Dub Modal]

Was it weed or something heavier? 

[jlhoots]

I saw Dexter at the Jazz Showcase in Chicago. Don't remember the date. He was great IMHO.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

LTD is one of the jazz players that I wished I had gotten around to seeing live when he was around. Unfortunately, I started going to jazz shows shortly after he stopped touring. After reading these reviews of his later shows, I don't feel as bad about it.

Edited March 1, 2022 by bresna

[Larry Kart]

51 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Was it weed or something heavier? 

Heroin, I'm pretty sure. Don't think that weed qualifies as "bebop ablutions."

[Dub Modal]

Just now, Larry Kart said:

Heroin, I'm pretty sure.

Damn, what a tragedy. 

[JSngry]

I heard stories of massive coke use earlier...smack, not so much?

Doesn't matter really, the guy lived large in every way and it caught up with him. But even at that, his "acting" in Round Midnight tell all kinds of truths.