Sonny Stitt. Why didn´t he become as famous as Dexter?

[Gheorghe]

On 5.3.2022 at 4:58 PM, Peter Friedman said:

George, the time you saw Dexter in 1983 he was exhibiting the effects of too much alcohol, which was my experience when I saw him in his later years inToronto. Yet the 1988 session in Japan could have taken place when Dexter kept his alcohol consumption under control.

 

Is it possible that Dexter´s life , though not as chaotic and short as Bud´s life, had paralels ? Celebrated Bop Star in the 40´s , long decline in the 50´s with long prison periods, a slow resurection after that with some substantial BN records, then leaving the States and a long stay in Europe, and a first celebrated comeback in the States, where things (drinking) again got out of control and led to embarrasing performances, with the only difference that Dexter somehow rallied a bit in the last years, but it was too late since his body had given up.... ? Only that it lasted longer. Dexters stay in Europe lasted 15 years, Bud´s only 5 years, Dexter´s comeback to NY lasted 5 years, Bud´s comeback less than 2 years.....
Anyway, Dexter in 1983 must have been similar to Bud´s weak performances at Carnegie Hall and Town Hall.....completly drunk and unable to play....

[John L]

I saw Dex many times in the 70s but not in the 80s.  He always maintained a very high degree of professionalism even if he might of had one too many a few times.  I never saw him "completely drunk and unable to play."   I have a number of concert recordings from the 80s that, while some of them suggest a bit of decline, are also professionally sound.  So if there is a tape of Dex so drunk that he completely messes up, I have not heard it. 

 

[Gheorghe]

13 hours ago, John L said:

I saw Dex many times in the 70s but not in the 80s.  He always maintained a very high degree of professionalism even if he might of had one too many a few times.  I never saw him "completely drunk and unable to play."   I have a number of concert recordings from the 80s that, while some of them suggest a bit of decline, are also professionally sound.  So if there is a tape of Dex so drunk that he completely messes up, I have not heard it. 

 

On some bootleg label there was a 2 CD set of Dexter at Vanguard in 1983. It was recorded on 27 februarie 1983, when Dexter celebrated his 60´s birthday. It´s quite painful to hear, in any case much worse than what @mhatta posted from 1988 in Japan. The playing list is among others "Secret Love" which was also the first tune on the terrible performance I saw just 2 weeks before, than it has the obligatory "As Time goes By", which is only a shadow of the wonderful version on "Manhattan Symphony" only a few years earlier, it has "Soy Califa" much to fast for what was Dexter able at that time, a rambling performance of "Hi Fly", a tune that sounded so great on "Gotham City", and I think it ends with "Jumpin´ Blues"...
I had bought it out of curiosity but never listened to it again....

[John L]

Thanks, Gheorghe.  I would say that I will listen to it and see for myself.  But I am in no rush at all.     There is too much great Dexter Gordon on wax to want go through the pain of hearing something like that.   

[Gheorghe]

15 hours ago, John L said:

Thanks, Gheorghe.  I would say that I will listen to it and see for myself.  But I am in no rush at all.     There is too much great Dexter Gordon on wax to want go through the pain of hearing something like that.   

Right !

[Dan Gould]

This conversation led me to dig out some 1980s private recordings by Dex ... discovered that I have the one Georghe references. It's hardly great yet also weirdly interesting. What I listened to didn't fall apart completely, almost a high-wire act waiting to see what would happen.

I also listened to a performance from March 1982, ironically matching Dex and Johnny Griffin, two folks who would drink mortal men far under the table, if stories of consumption are to be believed.  They both sound terrific.

[medjuck]

Am I the only one who doesn't like his playing in Round Midnight?   I think that film has a lot to do with why he became more famous than Stitt.  IIRC when I started listening to jazz in the late '50s early '6os Stitt was the more famous of the two. BTW I do like Dexter's earlier work especially Go!  

I saw him once walking through LAX all by himself carrying his saxophone and looking very distinguished. 

[Gheorghe]

4 hours ago, medjuck said:

Am I the only one who doesn't like his playing in Round Midnight?   I think that film has a lot to do with why he became more famous than Stitt.  IIRC when I started listening to jazz in the late '50s early '6os Stitt was the more famous of the two. BTW I do like Dexter's earlier work especially Go!  

I saw him once walking through LAX all by himself carrying his saxophone and looking very distinguished. 

I would say the tune "Round Midnight" itself was not really written for a saxophonist like Dexter. I never really liked it when Dexter played "Round Midnight" or "Ruby My Dear" (which was from the "Manhattan Symphony" session, but issued on "Great Encounters". 

That´s it, I love the tune Round Midnight, but not the way Dexter plays it, and by the way, I couldn´t imagine that Monk would have used Dex as a saxophonist in his quartets...

The grossly overproduced version of "Midnight" in the film itself ...... two basses, all that effort for a tune....., it is the part of the film, where Dexter (Dale Turner) get´s the opportunity to make a studio record in France.....

 

[danasgoodstuff]

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think medjuck was referring to Dexter's playing in the movie Round Midnight, not the tune of the same name.  That his comment was related to the ongoing discussion of Dexter's playing deteriorating over time, not the compatibility of his style and Monk's tunes.  Dexter seemed to think it worked for him since it was part of his set list before the movie,  (134) Round Midnight - Dexter Gordon - YouTube

[Gheorghe]

12 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think medjuck was referring to Dexter's playing in the movie Round Midnight, not the tune of the same name.  That his comment was related to the ongoing discussion of Dexter's playing deteriorating over time, not the compatibility of his style and Monk's tunes.  Dexter seemed to think it worked for him since it was part of his set list before the movie,  (134) Round Midnight - Dexter Gordon - YouTube

Thank you ! I also thought that medjuck was referring to Dexter´s playing in the movie in general, but since part of his playing in the film is also that strange version of "Midnight" I thought it would make sense to concentrate a bit on the tune itself. Anyway, there is not so much playing of Dex in the Film. There is "As Time Goes By", "Una Noche Con Francis", "Rhythm a Ning", Society Red, Autumn in NY and a few more. 
About his playing, his solos are very short but my first thought then in 1985 was that it sounded better and not so erratic than what I had heard and seen in 1983. Maybe he had people watching after him, controlling his alcool consumption. 

Bernard Travenier described Dexter during the time of the film shooting as very weak, "a 62 one, who is an enigma to the doctors, has " no liver" etc (I think I read that in Stan Britts book about Dexter). 

Actually, the main part of the story shows the paralels between Bud in France and Dexter himself, both alcoolics who needed people to control their alcool consumption. It´s exactly like Francis Paudras remembered Bud. Sometimes sober since he was not allowed a drink at the club, sometimes stealing another costumer´s drink or even a bottle....just the same. Two artists of the same generation, with the same problems......

[JSngry]

Bud, sure, but also Lester!

[medjuck]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Bud, sure, but also Lester!

IIRC they named both of them as "inspirations" for the film on the poster!  (At least in the US)

[Gheorghe]

15 hours ago, JSngry said:

Bud, sure, but also Lester!

I think the inspiration of Lester was not so strong as the story about Bud in the film. They named Lester since Dexter was a tenor player and the part were "Dale Turner" tells Francis about the sufferings he underwent during Army Service is Lester´s story, and the use of "Lady" for fellow musicians.....
But most of it is Bud´s live in France, the friendship with the French jazz lover, the difficult relation with Buttercup, the days of relaxing in the Normandie, and the return to Birdland..., 

[JSngry]

Dexter's later playing parallels Lester, very much.

[Peter Friedman]

The point is that the film is a mixture of aspects of the lives of Bud, Prez, and Dexter.

[medjuck]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Dexter's later playing parallels Lester, very much.

Lester's later playing? 

Edited March 13, 2022 by medjuck

[JSngry]

Cutting your finger with a sharpass chef's knife kinfe is painful. Lester's later playing is a communication of a mixture of many things including, but by no means limited, to pain.

[Gheorghe]

I think I have not listened to this for decades. 

This is really very good playing by Dexter. I think they kept him sober for those nights, since it was most important for his further career. 

The combination with Woody Shaw and those superb players Ronny Matthews, Stafford James and Louis Hayes is the best, really a dream band. 

I like Stafford James much more than Rufus Reid. Stafford really has power and pulsation, I like it better than Rufus Reid, who sounded somehow laid back on certain points. Ronny Matthews was such a fantastic player. He became Johnny Griffin´s piano player, I also like his playing more than George Cables. Same with the great Louis Hayes, I like his drumming more than Eddie Gladden. Don´t misunderstand me, I don´t want to put them down, but the band here is just the best thing that could happen. 
Well, once I heard a fantastic bowed bass solo by Rufus on the bossa tune "I told you so", taped from Village Vanguard on July 4th 1978. 
Dexter with Shaw always was great. Some particularly great performance can be heard on the Montreux Summit from 1977 on the small band set Dexter with Woody and Slide Hampton playing "Fried Bananas" "Moontrane" . And also the 1981 "Gotham City" is astonishing good, since it has such superb players like Cedar Walton, Percy Heath and Art Blakey and even George Benson. And with this rhythm section, a ballad like "A Nightingale sang at Berkley Place" is not as extreme slow tempo as his usual ballad performances like his eternal  "More than You Now", which is so slowly played that it´s almost rubato. 

[Shrdlu]

The difference is that Dex was Carbon Neutral and Sonny was not.

[danasgoodstuff]

Dexter has more soul, how is that not obvious?  Ironic since Sonny's the one who made Soul Jazz records, but the're largely pro forma and Dex playing ballads is way more soulful.

[Peter Friedman]

2 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Dexter has more soul, how is that not obvious?  Ironic since Sonny's the one who made Soul Jazz records, but the're largely pro forma and Dex playing ballads is way more soulful.

I agree!

[JSngry]

I hate to quantify such a thing as "soul"...no good outcomes there....but maybe Dexter projected more....vulnerability, perhaps? Subjectively?

[Gheorghe]

I didn´t know that the ability of playing really deep and moving ballads means "soul", but if it is so, I sure agree. 

Dexter could play great ballads from the start on. You can hear it as early as his solos in the Billy Eckstine Big Band. 

But if ballads are played too slow, I mean as slow as it´s almost stoppin´ time, it´s harder to listen to. 
Let´s say, in his last decade Dexter had a tendency to play ballads at an extremely slow tempo. 
But if he had a rhythm section that pushed things a bit more , he would play them a bit faster. That´s why I like his "Nightingale at Berkley Place" from "Gotham City" so much. Or his first version of Midnight on "Homecomin", though they cut the intro short...., 

By the way: I wrote that review about Homecoming here on Monday, where I try to write my impressions about it, and especially the fine rhythm section, much better than what came later. NO LOVE for "Homecoming" ?????

Yesterday I listened to "Sophisticated Giant" after more than 40 years. 
I didn´t like it as much as Homecoming then and hoped I would like it more now. 

But it didn´t happen. 
Sure, the idea of a larger band is an interesting one, but in my case at least, I don´t like the arrangements so much, with all due respect for Mr. Slide Hampton. I just can´t fall in love with the flute sound, again with all due respect for Mr. Frank Wess, but I never was a fan of the sound of flute and here it´s extremly piercing. The recording sound is not the best. Dexter is at much lower volume than those bombastic arrangements, and get´s less showplace than on other records. 
I never really liked the bass sound of Rufus Reid, it´s too long and soft notes, I like it more, if the bass has a more percussive sound, like Stafford James who is fantastic on Homecoming. The drum´s also not well recorded, the bass drum is too loud and the cymbals is barely audible...
And the arrangements for ballads like Laura and You´re blasé is too heavy weight....
So this record will have again a rest for the next 40 years .... 

Edited March 18, 2022 by Gheorghe

[Peter Friedman]

Gheorghe,

I like "Homecoming", but it is not among my favorite Dexter Gordon albums. My opinion on the rhythm section is very different that what you wrote. Ronnie Mathews was a fine jazz player, but to my ears Cedar Walton, George Cables and Kirk Lightsey were far more interesting. I also much prefer Rufus Reid to Stafford James. Reid's sound and solo playing are top level in my view. Stafford, like Ronnie Mathews was a good player, but never did anything that stood out for me.

Different strokes ...

 

[danasgoodstuff]

20 hours ago, JSngry said:

I hate to quantify such a thing as "soul"...no good outcomes there....but maybe Dexter projected more....vulnerability, perhaps? Subjectively?

It's a can of worms, to be sure.  But it's there and seems unavoidable in comparing these two.