History of Jazz (book)

[wesbed]

I was looking at this book at Border's over the weekend. >link<

The book caught my attention. I nearly purchased the book but decided to check opinions on this Board first. Sometimes a book can appear good but turn out to be not worth reading at all.

Has anybody read this book. Opinions? Yay or nay?

[Brad]

Oh, get it. This is the first jazz history book I read when I became a fan and it was worth every penny. A very good overview. He points out the contributions of every important artist. I remember his writing on Pops being particularly good. I think this is a must.

[Chuck Nessa]

Have not read it but it would have to go some to beat the competition. My current favorite is Alyn Shipton's "A New History of Jazz".

[Simon Weil]

Not my thing. His treatment of Ayler is BS.

Simon Weil

[garthsj]

Not my thing. His treatment of Ayler is BS.

Simon Weil

As someone who writes large social histories as part of my profession, it is only fair to point out that no one author is capable of writing something as cosmic in its coverage as a "History of Jazz" and end up pleasing everyone. Each one of us will complain that some favorite musician or other has been given short shrift, and therefore we must assume that the rest of the book is worthless. For a personal example, how could Thomas Owens write a book entitled "Bebop: The Music and the Players," (Oxford UP, 1995), and have just two short references to Buddy DeFranco, neither of which discusses the clarinetist's contribution. I can provide literally hundreds of such examples dealing with other musicians in the many jazz histories now available. The point is that when you write a book that is this all-encompassing you have to make choices (like, God help him! Ken Burns had to do in his unfairly maligned television series). The Gioia book is very good, and his earlier volume "West Coast Jazz" (Oxford, 1992) being more specialized, is even better.

I have many jazz histories in my collection .. here is a very interesting, and opinionated, early one from 1955 .....

Edited March 22, 2004 by garthsj

[Jazzmoose]

It's on my shelf and the best overall history I've read. As garthsj points out, his West Coast Jazz is even better.

[DTMX]

No history-of-jazz book can be all things to all people but this one's pretty good. It's been on my coffee table for years and I still crack it open to read my favorite sections now and then.

[couw]

As someone who writes large social histories as part of my profession...

I am sorry to sidetrack this thread a bit, but...

Garth, are you familiar with the writings of Ekkehard Jost? I have a German book by him titled "Social History of Jazz in the USA," which is really very good. I was wondering whether there are more such social-historical approaches to jazz history.

Apart from "Free Jazz," Jost's own work has only been published in German I believe.

[MartyJazz]

No history-of-jazz book can be all things to all people but this one's pretty good. It's been on my coffee table for years and I still crack it open to read my favorite sections now and then.

Gioia is an excellent writer whose informative analysis of jazz artists is enhanced by the fact that he also happens to be a musician. I also liked his WEST COAST JAZZ but would particulary like to recommend what I believe was his first book, a relatively short one about the uniqueness of jazz as an art form, titled THE IMPERFECT ART. Really excellent and thought provoking

[Simon Weil]

Not my thing. His treatment of Ayler is BS.

Simon Weil

As someone who writes large social histories as part of my profession, it is only fair to point out that no one author is capable of writing something as cosmic in its coverage as a "History of Jazz" and end up pleasing everyone. Each one of us will complain that some favorite musician or other has been given short shrift, and therefore we must assume that the rest of the book is worthless.

No I'm not saying that (that the book is worthless). Nor am I saying that Ayler is given short shrift. I said Gioia's treatment of him is BS and I meant that it is worthless. Overall, my feeling about Gioia is that he doesn't have the sensibility for the writing about the whole of Jazz in a balanced way. His major area of interest is West Coast Jazz - and his sensibility is likely suited to that.

Normally the style he adopts is one of elegance and control, but his treatment of Ayler is just a rant.

I conclude that his sensibility fails him with Ayler (and probably people like him).

Simon Weil

[sal]

I like the book alot.

[John L]

I also like the Ted Gioia book very much. I think that he did just about as good as job as possible to cover all of jazz history in a book that size. Some parts are inevitably better than others. But Gioia really knows the subject and put a lot of thought into all of it.

Chuck mentioned the new Shipton book. I agree that it is a valuable contribution, and puts emphasis on a number of areas that have received too little attention in past histories. It has some glaring weaknesses as well, however. For example, I find Shipton's coverage of hard bop and soul jazz to be very superficial and inadequate.

[Dr. Rat]

Gioia is a very interesting writer, I think.

Everyone has their limitations, apparently Gioia's start somewhere this side of Albert Ayler. As explained above there is no avoiding these limitations coming through.

In order to write, one makes choices.

In order to love one music, one must have a set of predilections that will make one actively dislike something else.

All in all, though, I think Gioia is usually an enlightening read.

--eric

[garthsj]

Garth, are you familiar with the writings of Ekkehard Jost? I have a German book by him titled "Social History of Jazz in the USA," which is really very good. I was wondering whether there are more such social-historical approaches to jazz history.

Apart from "Free Jazz," Jost's own work has only been published in German I believe.

I am aware of Jost's book, which has a fine reputation, but my German language skills do not allow me to read it. I wonder if there will ever be an English translation .. what about you doing it Couw?

The "social history of jazz" is a subject that has a somewhat checkered history. In the past the issue revolved largely around issues of race, but in recent years there has been an interest in the development of jazz as a symbol of "modernization" in the twentieth century. I believe that there might have been a previous discussion of this issue in this forum, but I can't seem to locate it. In any case, this is a topic well worth further discussion. Unfortunately I do not have a lot of time at this precise moment, but as a start may I suggest the following recent book, which is provocative, engaging, annoying in places, but a worthy contribution to a reassessment of the role of jazz in modern culture.

Alfred Appel, JAZZ MODERNISM: FROM ELLINGTON AND ARMSTRONG TO MATISSE AND JOYCE, Knopf, 2002.

Garth.

[TedR]

couw,

I picked up a book at a library sale a couple weeks back entitled Jazz in American Culture by Burton W. Peretti. Published in 1997. Haven't read it yet so can make no comments. But it appears to take the "social-historical" approach you're interested in.

[Dr. Rat]

couw,

I picked up a book at a library sale a couple weeks back entitled Jazz in American Culture by Burton W. Peretti. Published in 1997. Haven't read it yet so can make no comments. But it appears to take the "social-historical" approach you're interested in.

I think he's the "Birth of Jazz" guy--and that's an interesting read in the socio-historical mode.

--eric

[couw]

Thanks for the recommendations!

The Appel has some interesting reviews at amazon; looks like a provocative read to be dealt with with some reservations. The price is decent, so I'll probably opt for this one when I finish my current read.

I see Peretti has also written a book titled "The Creation of Jazz," is that what you mean Mr. Rat? I see there are copies of both available via AbeBooks.

As for doing a translation of the Jost book: I have actually done this type of thing (translating German to English). It's rather wearisome. If I ever find I really have nothing to do, I'll drop you a note and you may remind me

If you are looking only for some specific parts, I can of course whip you up a little translation.

[Nate Dorward]

The West Coast Jazz book is OK but I wouldn't say it was very well written--it's also not very well organized. The most peculiar thing is his habit of dealing with particular artists in sections that don't correspond to chapter divisions. A given artist might get say one and a half chapters, with the second chapter switching arbitrarily to a different person entirely for no obvious reason. It sometimes reads as if the manuscript was originally a continuous block of prose & the chapter divisions were introduced at a late stage & not very carefully.

[Dr. Rat]

Yes, the usual trouble with names: Creation of Jazz.

He does as full a job with context (plantations of Louisiana as well as New Orleans, for instance) as I've seen, though I've read only modestly in the Early Jazz literature. But I thought it presented good new ways of looking at things.

--eric

[Simon Weil]

As someone who writes large social histories as part of my profession...

I am sorry to sidetrack this thread a bit, but...

Garth, are you familiar with the writings of Ekkehard Jost? I have a German book by him titled "Social History of Jazz in the USA," which is really very good. I was wondering whether there are more such social-historical approaches to jazz history.

The two books I know about like this are the Peretti Creation of Jazz (mentioned above) and The Birth of Bebop, A Social and Musical History by Scott DeVeaux. I actually find that neither really speak to me, though both seem well-regarded (particularly the DeVeaux), but (surprise): "Your mileage may vary".

The current trend in Jazz writing is to treat the music (largely) in aesthetic terms.

Simon Weil

[couw]

The two books I know about like this are the Peretti Creation of Jazz (mentioned above) and The Birth of Bebop, A Social and Musical History by Scott DeVeaux. I actually find that neither really speak to me, though both seem well-regarded (particularly the DeVeaux), but (surprise): "Your mileage may vary".

The current trend in Jazz writing is to treat the music (largely) in aesthetic terms.

Simon Weil

I kind of like the inevitability component of history that comes to the fore in Jost's writings. Much of what he writes is about how one thing leads to another, leads to the next, and to free jazz in the end. It's an almost Marxist way of writing, but very interesting I find, as it looks for connections where you may not suspect them. As it is, I like this way of writing a LOT more than the hero-worship kind the Burns series presented us.

How do the books discussed fit in here? Is it inherent to social-history to describe things as a logical result of what went before combined with the circumstances at hand? Or is this a specific knack of lefties like Jost?

[Dr. Rat]

The two books I know about like this are the Peretti Creation of Jazz  (mentioned above) and The Birth of Bebop, A Social and Musical History by Scott DeVeaux. I actually find that neither really speak to me, though both seem well-regarded (particularly the DeVeaux), but (surprise): "Your mileage may vary".

The current trend in Jazz writing is to treat the music (largely) in aesthetic terms.

Simon Weil

I kind of like the inevitability component of history that comes to the fore in Jost's writings. Much of what he writes is about how one thing leads to another, leads to the next, and to free jazz in the end. It's an almost Marxist way of writing, but very interesting I find, as it looks for connections where you may not suspect them. As it is, I like this way of writing a LOT more than the hero-worship kind the Burns series presented us.

How do the books discussed fit in here? Is it inherent to social-history to describe things as a logical result of what went before combined with the circumstances at hand? Or is this a specific knack of lefties like Jost?

I think social history has been moving away from the inevitability sort fo argument for a while.

You get arguments more about how what happens is conditioned rather than determined by material factors, with individual actors able to react creatively to conditions.

This doesn't usually mean hero worship, but a kind of compromise between the contributions of structural conditions and human agency, which leaves the path open for a variety of explanatory methods (psychological, material, ideological, etc.) to be used in a more or less a la carte approach.

Though one of these approaches usually dominates at the end of the day: the central theme might be something like: the blues was the result of the industrialization of farm life in the American South, say, but over the course of the book we would recognize the genius of Robert Johnson and wonder what Son House felt about his parents (just an example).

--eric

[Simon Weil]

The two books I know about like this are the Peretti Creation of Jazz  (mentioned above) and The Birth of Bebop, A Social and Musical History by Scott DeVeaux. I actually find that neither really speak to me, though both seem well-regarded (particularly the DeVeaux), but (surprise): "Your mileage may vary".

The current trend in Jazz writing is to treat the music (largely) in aesthetic terms.

Simon Weil

I kind of like the inevitability component of history that comes to the fore in Jost's writings. Much of what he writes is about how one thing leads to another, leads to the next, and to free jazz in the end. It's an almost Marxist way of writing, but very interesting I find, as it looks for connections where you may not suspect them. As it is, I like this way of writing a LOT more than the hero-worship kind the Burns series presented us.

Maybe Jost is coming out of Hegel (Hegel being an influence on Marx), historically necessary personalities...

How do the books discussed fit in here? Is it inherent to social-history to describe things as a logical result of what went before combined with the circumstances at hand? Or is this a specific knack of lefties like Jost?

As I said, I didn't really connect with these books - so don't quote me on it, but I think these take up social history at a kind of micro-level, rather than the grand, sweeping macro-level you're going to need to write about inevitability. Also the whole Anglo-American pragmatic view (to which I subscribe in large part) tends to stop people in these cultures writing in that way.

But also the inevitability thing has a bad press as a result of Hitler.

Simon Weil

[Dr. Rat]

As someone who writes large social histories as part of my profession...

I am sorry to sidetrack this thread a bit, but...

Garth, are you familiar with the writings of Ekkehard Jost? I have a German book by him titled "Social History of Jazz in the USA," which is really very good. I was wondering whether there are more such social-historical approaches to jazz history.

The two books I know about like this are the Peretti Creation of Jazz (mentioned above) and The Birth of Bebop, A Social and Musical History by Scott DeVeaux. I actually find that neither really speak to me, though both seem well-regarded (particularly the DeVeaux), but (surprise): "Your mileage may vary".

The current trend in Jazz writing is to treat the music (largely) in aesthetic terms.

Simon Weil

Funny thing: I bought both of these books on the same shopping trip (staying sane during business travel!)

My boss and I ripped through the Deveaux, found it interesting, talked about it a bit. It isn't exactly compelling reading, though. That is, it's good if you are actively interested in 1940s America and Coleman Hawkins and all the techniques he employed in Body & Soul, etc. etc.

But this book won't make you interested in that stuff.

Same goes for the Peretti, I think. Interesting, not compelling.

--eric

[medjuck]

My boss and I ripped through the Deveaux, found it interesting, talked about it a bit. It isn't exactly compelling reading, though. That is, it's good if you are actively interested in 1940s America and Coleman Hawkins and all the techniques he employed in Body & Soul, etc. etc.

But this book won't make you interested in that stuff.

I felt the same way. Actually I can't remember much about the Deveaux except his point that Hawk doesn't get enough attention as a bebopper. And that the writer probably knew too much about academic jargon. I learned more from the Proper box sets Hawkins: The Be-bop Years and their Be-bop Box (the title of which I forget right now) which had a lot of material I'd never heard, or even heard of, before.

Edited March 22, 2004 by medjuck