Kalo Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 I guess I didn't get it, either. If Henry Winkler is the yardstick of cool, then for jazz it would be... Dave Brubeck? (or Stan Kenton?) Quote
JSngry Posted May 17, 2005 Report Posted May 17, 2005 Perhaps a definition of 'cool' is necessary. I've always assumed 'cool' excludes 'warmth'. If by 'cool' poise is meant - an ability to carry things off seemingly without effort or affectation - then I'm fine with it. But the term is frequently used to suggest being ahead of the game in finding the next big thing but moving on before it becomes the next big thing; or being able to access something that is beyond mere mortals. In that sense 'cool' is all about style, not substance. Whoa, dude, what you define is "pseudo", and pseudo is definitely neither hip nor cool! Is the jazz world in England as messed up as you paint it, or do y'all just not get enough sunshine? Quote
Kalo Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 BruceH Posted on May 17 2005, 02:14 PM How about Lester Young? Like I said above, there's a very strong argument that he invented cool. Certainly, as an instrumentalist, he pioneered what became the key "cool jazz" tenor style. And his contributions to hipster lingo were innumerable. So, yeah, he'd have to be right up there for me. Though there seems to be little agreement on this thread as to what "cool" is. (The Fonz? I'm still scratching my head on that one. He's about as close as a human can come to being a Muppet. Not cool in my book.) Quote
neveronfriday Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 Why is it that everytime I chance upon this thread since its inception, I read the question to be "Who had the hippest, coolest stage manager?" It must be a Freudian thing. Quote
Dr. Rat Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 Why is it that everytime I chance upon this thread since its inception, I read the question to be "Who had the hippest, coolest stage manager?" It must be a Freudian thing. ← I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. I think the thing with cool is that it really originated as a negative thing--that is, it played off a manner that was "uncool." This goes back to Lester Young, who was streets away from being "cool" as in "natural" or "unaffected." Cool for him was a theatrical performance which sent up, flustered, frustrated, puzzled and thwarted the decidedly uncool. Unfortunately there is a bullying element to this--my reading of Young is that one of his core messages was "you have left the normal context behind." Language is now different, power relationships are different, values are different. I know the language, the sources of power and the values. You do not. In many ways it was the flip-side of what an intelligent, sensitive black man must have often experienced in his travels through American society. I am not altogether unsympathetic with this move, especially in Young's case, but I think there are some distinct limitations to this essentially hostile approach to the world at large. And as the balance of hostility has shifted--as the hostility of the cool to the uncool has been matched by the increasing indifference of the uncool--the whole business has become an exercise in courting self-affirming rejection from the ignorant bourgeois. Which, if you asked me, is pretty masturbatory. Which may be why adolescents are the folks most keenly aware of and obsessed with what is cool and uncool. I'm middle aged, I have no time for the masturbatory! --eric Quote
JSngry Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 How cool would it be if somebody suggested that your post suggests otherwise? Quote
Dr. Rat Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 How cool would it be if somebody suggested that your post suggests otherwise? ← Oh, I know I'll never walk alone. --eric Quote
JSngry Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 And I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows. Shouldn't that be I believe that for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows? Seems like it should be, but hell, I dunno. Who wrote that song, anyway? Lessee...according to AMG, it was Ervin Drake, Irvin Graham, Jimmy Shirl, Al Stillman. Geez, triteness by committee. NOT cool! Quote
Dr. Rat Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 And I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows. Shouldn't that be I believe that for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows? Seems like it should be, but hell, I dunno. Who wrote that song, anyway? Lessee...according to AMG, it was Ervin Drake, Irvin Graham, Jimmy Shirl, Al Stillman. Geez, triteness by committee. NOT cool! ← Check this out. Kinda Fonzie cool. --eric Quote
JSngry Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 Further proof that Rogers & Hart were cooler than Rogers & Hammerstein.! Quote
A Lark Ascending Posted May 19, 2005 Report Posted May 19, 2005 Some definitions of 'cool' from Google - I've left out the ones to do with temperature or meaning 'unfriendly': marked by calm self-control (especially in trying circumstances); unemotional; "play it cool"; "keep cool"; "stayed coolheaded in the crisis"; "the most nerveless winner in the history of the tournament" aplomb: great coolness and composure under strain; "keep your cool" lose intensity; "His enthusiasm cooled considerably" fashionable and attractive at the time; often skilled or socially adept; "he's a cool dude"; "that's cool"; "Mary's dress is really cool"; "it's not cool to arrive at a party too early" www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn Cool is a complex aesthetic of motion and interval, of tension and tranquility, of juxtaposition and coexistence, that has its roots in various West African cultures. The cool aesthetic permeates traditional West African cultures and African-American culture, as well — in black artistic and musical expression, in the hitch in the "pimp" strut of urban black men, in dress, demeanor and speech. Over time, "cool" has been appropriated by American and world popular culture, generally, especial en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_(aesthetic) the style of the early 50s, taken up by many white musicians and popular on college campuses. The basis was bebop, but the fastest tempos were not used and the sound was quiet and understated. Miles Davis was one of the main originators. www.humboldt1.com/~jazz/glossary.html This popular expression is used to describe something that is very good. Ex: “That band is cool!” www.uncp.edu/home/canada/work/allam/1914-/language/slang.htm A relaxed but emotionally detached mood www.outsideshore.com/school/music/almanac/html/glossary/ I know those definitions don't even began to cover nuances. It's that 'detached' manners, that I detect in some musicians for whom a 'cool' stage manner matters, that bothers me. I love musicians who go out of their way to engage with their audience; not just musically but personally. Those with a sense of being one of 'everyman' rather than those concerned to be one of "a select few" (to quote from post 42). Quote
Jazzmoose Posted May 20, 2005 Report Posted May 20, 2005 Wow. I guess you had to be there or something. I know I'd listen to Dexter's Live at Carnegie Hall a lot more often if it wasn't such a pain to set up the player to skip all of the introductions... Quote
mrjazzman Posted May 21, 2005 Report Posted May 21, 2005 this is a no-brainer for me, its Miles with Dex coming a close second........ Quote
sheldonm Posted May 21, 2005 Report Posted May 21, 2005 Oscar Brown Jr (on the jazz scene USA)! B-) Quote
Cali Posted May 21, 2005 Report Posted May 21, 2005 Lee Morgan had a very hip stage presence, so did (does) Wayne Shorter. Quote
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