RIP Chick Corea

[Rabshakeh]

It never troubled me - Just a couple of dopey science fiction themes to ignore. Lenny White's records would have had much worse album artwork if they weren't all members of the "Church".

From my point of view, scientology is far down my list of things that would upset my listening habits.  Compare to the basic facts of Al Haig's or Art Pepper's biographies. 

[mikeweil]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

What any of that has to do with Chick Cores, I don't know, and I don't know if I should care. But...

Human beings fall for all kinds of things. Musicians are human beings, so .....

[Guy Berger]

21 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

It never troubled me - Just a couple of dopey science fiction themes to ignore. Lenny White's records would have had much worse album artwork if they weren't all members of the "Church".

From my point of view, scientology is far down my list of things that would upset my listening habits.  Compare to the basic facts of Al Haig's or Art Pepper's biographies. 

Same.  Don't really think about it.

[Dan Gould]

20 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

It never troubled me - Just a couple of dopey science fiction themes to ignore. Lenny White's records would have had much worse album artwork if they weren't all members of the "Church".

From my point of view, scientology is far down my list of things that would upset my listening habits.  Compare to the basic facts of Al Haig's or Art Pepper's biographies. 

You really summarize the evil nature of Scientology and the crimes committed by Hubbard and then Miscavige as "a couple of dopey science fiction themes"?

I realize there's a "no religion" as well as "no politics" rule but I have never ever heard Scientology described in such an anodyne fashion.

[Rabshakeh]

9 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

You really summarize the evil nature of Scientology and the crimes committed by Hubbard and then Miscavige as "a couple of dopey science fiction themes"?

I realize there's a "no religion" as well as "no politics" rule but I have never ever heard Scientology described in such an anodyne fashion.

Just from the point of view of listening to Chick Corea. That's all.

I meant no comment on Scientology or Hubbard. As it shows up in the experience of listening to Chick Corea's music I think it is fair to say that it is "anodyne".  It's music, not dianetics.

I feel differently about Scientology as a whole, and would not disagree with your characterisation.

My point was that I feel much less uncomfortable listening to a known Scientologist (Chick Corea) than I do listening to an alleged murderer (Al Haig) or a self-confessed rapist (Art Pepper). I would not put Chick Corea's belonging to the Church of Scientology anywhere near either of those two categories.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Rabshakeh

[Dan Gould]

4 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Just from the point of view of listening to Chick Corea. That's all.

I meant no comment on Scientology or Hubbard. As it shows up in the experience of listening to Chick Corea's music I think it is fair to say that it is "anodyne".  It's music, not dianetics.

I feel differently about Scientology as a whole, and would not disagree with your characterisation.

My point was that I feel much less uncomfortable listening to a known Scientologist (Chick Corea) than I do listening to an alleged murderer (Al Haig) or a self-confessed rapist (Art Pepper). I would not put Chick Corea's belonging to the Church of Scientology anywhere near either of those two categories.

OK, thanks for your clarification.

[Rabshakeh]

Just now, Dan Gould said:

OK, thanks for your clarification.

I should have been clearer in the first place.

[trane123]

I believe in the mid-70s version of RTF, Corea and Clarke were scientologists but White and Di Meola were not.  Di Meola always believed this was the biggest reason why Chick broke up the band.     

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by trane123

[Milestones]

So Chick was looking for fellow Scientologists to be in his bands and groups?  This is the man who has played with about a million other musicians.  

[Kevin Bresnahan]

43 minutes ago, Milestones said:

So Chick was looking for fellow Scientologists to be in his bands and groups?  This is the man who has played with about a million other musicians.  

I have been told by a couple of musicians that Chick often talked about Scientology with musicians in his band. Several reportedly were uncomfortable with it.

[trane123]

Well, what I meant to say was that Scientology was the biggest reason Chick broke the band up.  Interesting Di Meola interview here...

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new..._with_guitar_legend_al_di_meola_-_part_1.html

[Rabshakeh]

3 minutes ago, trane123 said:

Well, what I meant to say was that Scientology was the biggest reason Chick broke the band up.  Interesting Di Meola interview here...

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new..._with_guitar_legend_al_di_meola_-_part_1.html

Braxton says something similar regarding Circle in Forces in Motion, I recall. 

[soulpope]

5 minutes ago, trane123 said:

Well, what I meant to say was that Scientology was the biggest reason Chick broke the band up.  Interesting Di Meola interview here...

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new..._with_guitar_legend_al_di_meola_-_part_1.html

Interesting read .... thnx for sharing ....

[sgcim]

My father was a salesman, and he went to Lenny White's house to sell him something (could've been anything, my father changed jobs a lot). When he found out LW was a musician, LW mentioned that he just quit Chick Corea's group, because he was sick of Chick giving each of them 'stars' based on how well they played on each gig!

There were definitely guys who joined Scientology just to get in with Chick. One musician I went to college with joined Chick's band within a year or two of becoming a Scientologist. One musician he played 'club dates' (weddings, Bar Mitzvahs, etc..) with, remarked that the guy went from kishkas to space jazz in the space of a year.

[sgcim]

52 minutes ago, trane123 said:

Well, what I meant to say was that Scientology was the biggest reason Chick broke the band up.  Interesting Di Meola interview here...

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/new..._with_guitar_legend_al_di_meola_-_part_1.html

Is it my imagination, or does ADM sound like an egotistical jerk in all his interviews?

In one interview I read with him, he said jazz wasn't a creative music, but his music was.

[JSngry]

8 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

I have to completely separate that stuff from his music when I listen to it, which sometimes isn't easy. 

Yeah, there is that...and it's unfortunate. But there's almost by definition a connection between " communication" and "manipulation"...if you want to manipulate me to buy a record, fair enough. If you want to manipulate me to consider a broader worldview, thank you for caring. But if you want to manipulate me for the purpose of overt prosthelization..advertise it as such, like Gospel or some such.

To be fair, I haven't noticed anything like that at the casual fan level that I've been at for quite a while now. And I've know a few people that joined and did just fine. But there are the others...

What any of that has to do with Chick Cores, I don't know, and I don't know if I should care. But...

[BlueSpirits]

I remember reading Bill Connors left RTF because Chick would ask everyone to rate their solos after the gig, based on some sort of Scientology levels of merit.

Edit: Here's what it said on Wikipedia(not the most reliable source)

"Connors' disenchantment with the group also stemmed from certain objections to Corea's Scientology-inspired leadership style. "Chick had a lot of ideas that were part of his involvement with Scientology. He got more demanding, and I wasn't allowed to control my own solos. I had no power in the music at all. Then, we'd receive written forms about what clothes we could wear, and graphic charts where we had to rate ourselves every night – not by our standards, but his. Finally, we had to connect dots on a chart every night. I took all of it seriously because I had a lot of respect for Chick, but eventually I just felt screwed around. In the end, my only power was to quit."

 

A lot of his discography leaves me feeling cold and mechanical, but then there are moments of great beauty and warmth. He certainly was one of the giants of all time.

As for the Scientology stuff, it creeps me out and it took me a while to separate that part of the man from his music- same goes for anyone, really. Miles, Max Roach, Art Pepper...Eventually I concluded that these are still human beings who are susceptible to and represent both the good and bad/strange aspects of human nature, and it should not necessarily diminish their gift of music to the world. At least that is how I made peace with it, hah.

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by BlueSpirits

[JSngry]

Two more things.

1 -a cult is a cult is a cult. I've done occasional gigs at non-denominational mega churches where we were locked in a room for an hour before the service while the musical director prayed incessantly for, among other things, protection from outsiders and my level and spirits. Crazy, more than a little. But the gig would pay $3 50 for about 4 hours work so... And most of the band regulars looked it like that. But most is not all...and then their was all the layers of staff who would drop in to make sure that everything was "going ok". Creepy as fuck.

2 - Al Di Meola has always been, from what I can tell, either a jerk or a very jerk - like individual. Make of that what you will.

[trane123]

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I started listening to RTF back in the mid ‘70s when I was I high school.  I noticed that Chick always thanked L. Ron Hubbard on the back of the album covers.  I also remember seeing commercials on TV back then advertising “Dianetics”.  Out of curiosity, I checked the book out from the local library.  It didn’t make a lot of sense to me, so I dropped it.  Kept following the music though…

[JSngry]

The basic premise, as I understand it, is the we all hold ourselves back because of...ourselves. So we need to figure out how to get throh/past all that shit. Clarity of focus aka "clear".

So far, so good, probably one of the more admirable quest in life.

But Lord...a cult is a cult is a cult. Dear Leaders and YOU pay for them and that's how you "advance  " , that's a cult. Always. 

In all fairness, again, I have known 1 or 2 people who got something meaningful out of it without getting cult-ed. But apart from them... Those motherfuckers creepy.

 And yes, the same can be said about ANY church and its members. Like Groucho Marx and clubs, I'm wary about any church that would want to have me as a member. 

 

[Larry Kart]

From Bill Kirchner's 2011 Smithsonian interview with Dave Liebman:

Kirchner: Let’s go back to – when we left off yesterday, you were getting called by Chick Corea to do a world tour.

Liebman: I got a call. I was with Richie, duo in Houston. It’s 1977. We still were doing some things together. The phone rings. We were watching the Super Bowl. I remember it. We were play La Bastille. A very good friend of ours booked it, in Houston. He said – Chick said – I hadn’t talked to Chick in five, six years, since the loft, since he went to California and moved to Florida and the whole Return to Forever, and then Scientology, because I did Scientology with him and David in the beginning.

Kirchner: Oh really?

Liebman: Yeah. That’s another story. But anyway, I hadn’t really talked to him. No animosity, because I didn’t have a scene with him. Others had, I guess: Lenny and some of the other guys in his band. Circle, they had a little scene, from what I understand. But I didn’t have a scene with him, nothing like that. He just moved out one day, and he moved – he went to L.A. or something. So I don’t know why he called me. Of course he knew Richie. “Hi, man.” He said, “I’m doing a world tour. Joe can’t make it. I want you to do it. It will be with string quartet and four brass.” I think it was two trumpets, two trombones. I forget. “We rehearse for two weeks. Then we’re going to Japan, Europe, and Australia.”

Kirchner: Is this the one with Jimmy Pugh?

 

Liebman: Yes, and [Allen] Vizzzutti and [Tom] Brechtlein, Rick Laird. Gayle [Moran] played, and four strings, string quartet. Ron Moss was the manager. He played trombone. Pugh, Vizzutti, and I think maybe another horn. I forget. Or maybe just me. I was the main soloist. I did a world tour with him. It was two weeks rehearsal in L.A. Then we did everything.

That was very intense for a variety of reasons: because of my relationship with Chick, to be around him musically and socially, and then, he got me back to New York, because I was still living in California. It was then that I decided – I was at the end of this California dreamin’ days, the tune California Dreamin’, I think we know that. I had to get back. That was part of my – that was my way to get back, because financially, it put some money in my pocket.

Chick and I, we had a great time musically. This is three records he played: Mad Hatter, Leprechaun, and Spanish Heart, which were all strings. I learned – in a way, he’s the best of all, of all the musicians I’ve ever known. I put Phil Markowitz up there on that level. He just can do anything, Chick, and I’ve heard him do everything. He can do anything. He can write. He’s like that. To hear the music every night, and the way he wrote, was really a lesson in composition, because this guy is Mr. interlude, tag, intro, out-tro, shout chorus. He is way, way architecture man out. He’s form city. He’s like, jigsaw puzzle, great. A little overwritten in some ways, but great. Him, hearing him play every night . . . .

We always had a duo. We did Lush Life or we did Crystal Silence every night, one or the other. I soloed. I was playing flute and clarinet and sax, soprano and tenor. I was out front. It was a big thing for me. It was very prestigious.

But we got really into it about the Scientology, big time, and I can’t say we’ve ever repaired our relationship, although we’re friendly. He played down here. He played at Lafayette College – one of those colleges down – Lehigh, and my daughter, we met him, hanging out. It was cool. But I asked him to do a record date. He wouldn’t do it.

We had it out. I couldn’t believe the way he had changed as a person, and I took it upon myself. because I was that kind of idiot, to call him on it. Of all the nerve in the world. You’re a sideman. But I just – it’s the way I am. I couldn’t help it. I said, “I don’t understand” . . . . He tried to get me on his side. He said, “The Scien- – you were turned off because the people who did you, they were basically banned and thrown out of the organization. They weren’t right, and that’s why you didn’t get the right picture of it.” “Oh, is that so? Okay, yeah. So let’s go from there.” We had nightly discussions after the gig in hotel rooms, because he’s a very intelligent guy, extremely well written. He knows how to write. He’s a real guy. He’s a real smart cat. And I think a self-taught guy, autodidac. I’m not sure he’s the reader type. He’s not schooled, but he’s schooled.

 

Kirchner: Because he came to New York when he was about 20.

Liebman: That’s what I mean. He just learned. He’s a quick study. So you could talk. He was the kind of guy that could go on and on. He’s a little bit of a loop, a little like LaRoca. It’s a little like, “Yeah but,” and then circuitous reasoning, no conclusion. So you can pick it up tomorrow night. This is good and bad, frustrating. We had interesting discussions. Of course, in the end, we ended up parting on not-good terms, basically because I smoked a joint the last gig and had a relationship with the viola player. You’re not supposed to have uncaring sex, or something like that. He made everybody sign a paper. It was really rough. Everybody was in Scientology, almost everybody except the road guy, maybe two or three others. They had morning meetings. It was like, oh. I mean, cult stuff, I cannot stand that shit. I don’t care what it is. I don’t care if it’s for the greatest good in the world. Once you start doing that, that means me and not you, and I don’t go for that shit. So I was like – he left me alone. He didn’t make me sign the paper. But everybody had to sign the paper, no uncaring sex and no drugs, or something like that. Whatever. I didn’t – anyway, he got out of the airport – out of the plane – I don’t know if we should actually put this on here, but he got out of the plane. He said, “You are against me.” He said, “I never want to see you again.” Out of the plane, on American soil. The last gig was in Honolulu. We landed in L.A. airport. He turned – got out of the plane, turned around. He went like that. I never saw anybody. It was dramatic. He said, “I don’t want to see you again. You were against me. You fomented rebellion,” something in there. Some of it was true. Some of it was definitely true, because I was a Wisenheimer and I thought I knew everything too.

Anyway, outside of that, it got me back to New York, taught me a lot about composition, and led to this record I did, Dedications, string quartet and so forth. I really learned through him about strings. Then I went to Bartok and Beethoven and did my work. He’s a way great musician, way amazing musician. Tapes I have of him in ’69 with LaRoca, I never heard anybody play jazz like that, jazz, the ideas, the speed, the looseness of rhythm, the harmonic content, and with Pete, the way he played, and Swallow, never anything like it. He’s just a great musician, fantastic musician. Anyway, it got me back to New York and started my next stage. That was where we were at.

Kirchner: How long did that last with Chick?
Liebman: It was a three-month tour.
Kirchner: A pretty intense three months, obviously.
Liebman: Yeah, it was. It was intense, and it was all around the world. 

[gmonahan]

I have to confess that the Scientology thing put me off a little, but not nearly so much as the fusion stuff!  Didn't his attachment to Scientology keep him from being able to perform in Germany?? That rings the oldest and dimmest of bells, somehow. Anyway, he was a fine pianist, and I liked him in an acoustic context.

 

 

 

gregmo

[Guy Berger]

3 hours ago, sgcim said:

Is it my imagination, or does ADM sound like an egotistical jerk in all his interviews?

In one interview I read with him, he said jazz wasn't a creative music, but his music was.

I think you're right.  He seems to be one of those people whose exaggerated sense of self-importance leads them to regularly embarrass themselves in public.

Re the Liebman interview - really interesting.  Thanks for sharing, Larry.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Guy Berger

[felser]

That Corea/DiMeola/Clarke RTF group must have been hell for White then.

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

The basic premise, as I understand it, is the we all hold ourselves back because of...ourselves. So we need to figure out how to get throh/past all that ***. Clarity of focus aka "clear".

So far, so good, probably one of the more admirable quest in life.

But Lord...a cult is a cult is a cult. Dear Leaders and YOU pay for them and that's how you "advance  " , that's a cult. Always. 

In all fairness, again, I have known 1 or 2 people who got something meaningful out of it without getting cult-ed. But apart from them... Those motherfuckers creepy.

 And yes, the same can be said about ANY church and its members. Like Groucho Marx and clubs, I'm wary about any church that would want to have me as a member. 

 

I know a LOT about churches, and I've learned to avoid any church where the focus is on a personality.  Glad to talk to anyone about this offline.

[Rabshakeh]

7 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

From Bill Kirchner's 2011 Smithsonian interview with Dave Liebman:

 

Great interview. Thanks for posting.

7 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

He is way, way architecture man out. He’s form city. He’s like, jigsaw puzzle, great. A little overwritten in some ways, but great. Him, hearing him play every night . . . 

This line made me laugh.

7 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

He was the kind of guy that could go on and on. He’s a little bit of a loop, a little like LaRoca. It’s a little like, “Yeah but,” and then circuitous reasoning, no conclusion. So you can pick it up tomorrow night.

Does anyone know what this is a reference to? I love Pete LaRoca’s work (including Turkish Ladies, which I confess is the “Chick” record that I put on when I heard the sad news of his death, despite the controversy about it).