Joe Henderson Blue Note 1963-1966

[jazzbo]

1 hour ago, J.A.W. said:

I pointed out to Scott Wenzel last week that some more recent sets are missing from their OOP list and he told me they're behind with the updating. It's not a priority.

And today Fred told me that they are actually "revamping" the site. 

[JSngry]

But truthfully...I got the last HankBox when it went on LastCall just because of the excited SQ chatter over the years. But I can't tell you what that means, because I've yet to listen to it. Again, I know those records really well. So,like the old hen, I just keep on sitting on it.

But you know, Mosaic/BlueNote, it's a damn Pavlovian response. And $85 is not the least I've been conned out of by such impulses.

But now I wonder....if this is truly the "best sound ever"...where is the equivalent for the rest of the entire catalog? Or is that just not going to happen, ever?

[jazzbo]

In part many new transfers have been used for recent releases from Universal Japan and the US and they do sound really good, to me and on my system better than earlier cd releases. With Addey adding his expertise to the mastering the Mobley set sounded even a bit better. So the claim has meat to me, and there's potentially more great sounding discs in the future (or not).

[felser]

I've never heard them say "we remastered the material, but it doesn't really sound particularly different/better than what's been out before", even though I would argue that's the case often enough.  This is an easy pass for me, as were the Mobley and Morgan.  $ and shelf space are not limitless, and I have everything except the three new alternates on CD already (also have all the Mobley and Morgan material on CD), and they have the (subjective, for me) magic of the Blue Note artwork, which the Mosaics never do.

[JSngry]

4 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

In part many new transfers have been used for recent releases from Universal Japan and the US and they do sound really good, to me and on my system better than earlier cd releases.

Do you always play the old record right before playing the new one? Or are you just going by memory?

Just asking, because if I have to play a record twice to listen to it once...I ain't got time for all that right now.

I DO like that they're doing all this from files rather than tapes, because those tapes, some of them are going to get run once too often and then what?

[Brad]

I’d love to hear a comparison between The Kicker on Tone Poet and The Kicker on this set. I’d be surprised if sounds better than the TP. 

[jazzbo]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Do you always play the old record right before playing the new one? Or are you just going by memory?

Just asking, because if I have to play a record twice to listen to it once...I ain't got time for all that right now.

I DO like that they're doing all this from files rather than tapes, because those tapes, some of them are going to get run once too often and then what?

I compare them directly several times and then sell or give away the one I don't prefer. I've been retired 12 years (in a few weeks it will be 13) and I have time.

47 minutes ago, Brad said:

I’d love to hear a comparison between The Kicker on Tone Poet and The Kicker on this set. I’d be surprised if sounds better than the TP. 

To me comparing an LP to a cd is apples to oranges. I'm not big into LPs and I won't pay big dollars for one, and my system sounds much better on digital material than LPs--that's where I spent the money--so I'm only interested in collecting Blue Note on cd. Others have different priorities. Priorities are great, life and leisure are built upon them.

I don't think anyone needs to explain why they won't buy this set, or will. There are only going to be 2,500 copies, if that--Mosaic seems to have decided what they are going to do as far as lease limits and I think it will help them survive. I'm glad they might survive.

Edited April 18, 2021 by jazzbo

[Mark Stryker]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I dunno man...for me, it's like, I know this music. I don't think there's anything left for me to hear in it (audio-wise). "Sound quality", maybe a difference, but, hey, I'm a longtime married man and have long ago learned that different is not what you get, it's what you give, so I might not be the right person to ask about this. It's not like you're going to hear any new instruments or anything, it's still the same music and you know it pretty well, I'm thinking.

Still, hey, if you get the CDs (and these may be the ones to get if you don't have any - and, really how does THAT happen to a guy like you?!?!?!?!)), you can save your vinyl and not have to worry about wearing it out by listening to it. Collectors (and your wallet/estate!) will thank you for this, maybe.

As for the highly competent Bob Blumenthal doing these notes, uh....ok.

Thanks for your input. For the record, I had several on CD but sold those to finance other things when I realized I was doubling down on LPs ... 

[Brad]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

To me comparing an LP to a cd is apples to oranges. I'm not big into LPs and I won't pay big dollars for one, and my system sounds much better on digital material than LPs--that's where I spent the money--so I'm only interested in collecting Blue Note on cd. Others have different priorities. Priorities are great, life and leisure are built upon them.

How is it apples to oranges. We are taking about how a song sounds. That’s apples to apples.

Why do people buy Japanese CDs of BN material? It’s to get the “best sound.” What does “best sound” mean exactly? The best sound compared to the originals, which is LP.

No one says you should buy a LP if you don’t want to.  That’s a personal choice.  Most of my collection, including BN, is cd and although I realize vinyl probably sounds better, I’m not about to drastically change that. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Brad

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Best sound is not the original. Best sound is the master tape.

[Brad]

6 minutes ago, bresna said:

Best sound is not the original. Best sound is the master tape.

That’s true but I’d still like to hear a comparison   .

[Mark Stryker]

Look, if we don’t continue to buy music we’ve bought multiple times in multiple formats over the last 40 years for just marginal gains at best, then the terrorists win. 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Mark Stryker

[jlhoots]

2 hours ago, felser said:

I've never heard them say "we remastered the material, but it doesn't really sound particularly different/better than what's been out before", even though I would argue that's the case often enough.  This is an easy pass for me, as were the Mobley and Morgan.  $ and shelf space are not limitless, and I have everything except the three new alternates on CD already (also have all the Mobley and Morgan material on CD), and they have the (subjective, for me) magic of the Blue Note artwork, which the Mosaics never do.

+1

[jazzbo]

37 minutes ago, Brad said:

How is it apples to oranges. We are taking about how a song sounds. That’s apples to apples.

Why do people buy Japanese CDs of BN material? It’s to get the “best sound.” What does “best sound” mean exactly? The best sound compared to the originals, which is LP.

No one says you should buy a LP if you don’t want to.  That’s a personal choice.  Most of my collection, including BN, is cd and although I realize vinyl probably sounds better, I’m not about to drastically change that. 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I've bought Japanese cds for two reasons: availability of the material and to find better cd sound. Vinyl and digital media reproduce music and are different and to me sound different. Apples and oranges are both fruits but different. In my system LP and cd playback are fundamentally different, and comparing one to another is very problematic for me--digital 99 percent of the time sounds better to me on my system than LP playback. I don't want to argue what seems clear to me. Perhaps I'm not explaining it well but oh well.

Edited April 19, 2021 by jazzbo

[Dub Modal]

Mosaic's last Mobley set had ridiculously good SQ, which for me really made a difference when listening to an album like A Slice of the Top where there's an octet involved. Those larger ensembles can get muddy in terms of separation with other masterings and the Mosaic set brought out the best in that recording. The timbre of Mobley's tenor was incredible too, and that's what is kind of drawing me to get this set as I know Joe's going to sound fantastic. Unless you have a really good analog chain for your turntable (and really, how much sense does it make to have thousands invested in an audio chain to play a $30 record?), it would be hard to believe that any LP would beat what Addey did for that last set. 

It almost makes me want to go for that Herman Mars set. ALMOST. Because I know that's the best that material will ever sound but it's just not what I can drop over $100 on at the moment. 

[JSngry]

21 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

Look, if we don’t continue to buy music we’ve bought multiple times in multiple formats over the last 40 years for just marginal gains at best, then the terrorists win. 

You mean the terrorists who keep trying to get an audience for new non-recreative music? 

[Mark Stryker]

15 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Mosaic's last Mobley set had ridiculously good SQ, which for me really made a difference when listening to an album like A Slice of the Top where there's an octet involved. Those larger ensembles can get muddy in terms of separation with other masterings and the Mosaic set brought out the best in that recording. The timbre of Mobley's tenor was incredible too, and that's what is kind of drawing me to get this set as I know Joe's going to sound fantastic. Unless you have a really good analog chain for your turntable (and really, how much sense does it make to have thousands invested in an audio chain to play a $30 record?), it would be hard to believe that any LP would beat what Addey did for that last set. 

It almost makes me want to go for that Herman Mars set. ALMOST. Because I know that's the best that material will ever sound but it's just not what I can drop over $100 on at the moment. 

Coda: Just dropping in here to note that you don't invest thousands in an audio chain to play "a" $30 dollar record, you invest to thousands to play a whole fucking basement full of them. Carry on ... 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Mark Stryker

[JSngry]

5 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

 (and really, how much sense does it make to have thousands invested in an audio chain to play a $30 record?)

Oh, do not ask be to decide how much sense something makes where the premise is based on a $30 lp sourced from digital files!

[Brad]

13 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Vinyl and digital media reproduce music and are different and to me sound different. Apples and oranges are both fruits but different. In my system LP and cd playback are fundamentally different, and comparing one to another is very problematic for me. I don't want to argue what seems clear to me. Perhaps I'm not explaining it well but oh well.

They both reproduce music and that is the common element, the music. When I play music on my system, whether it’s cd or vinyl, the output is music. It’s not vinyl music or digital music. It’s music.

My original point is that I’d like to hear them both. Maybe Dub Modal is right but unless we hear the comparison, we aren’t going to know.

To Mark Stryker’s point, I’ve reached the point where there is too much other music to explore to keep buying the same thing multiple times. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Brad

[Dub Modal]

12 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

Coda: Just dropping in here to note that you don't invest thousands in an audio chain to play A $30 dollar record, you invest to thousands to play a whole fucking basement full of them. Carry on ... 

Ha, I love playing my records in the basement too. It's cool down there, and the dankness adds to the aesthetic nicely. 

[jazzbo]

1 hour ago, Brad said:

They both reproduce music and that is the common element, the music. When I play music on my system, whether it’s cd or vinyl, the output is music. It’s not vinyl music or digital music. It’s music.

My original point is that I’d like to hear them both. Maybe Dub Modal is right but unless we hear the comparison, we aren’t going to know.

To Mark Stryker’s point, I’ve reached the point where there is too much other music to explore to keep buying the same thing multiple times. 

Cool. I'm not interested in the Tone Poet, new vinly reissues don't interest me at all and are freaking expensive. And to me they are not both music, they are reproduced difffrerently enough taht I choose one format as sounding best and stick with it.

When I bought the Mobley set I sold my other copies of the material on disc and actually paid for the set with the sales. So for me it was a win win--better sound, homogenous mastering over all the sessions and very little money actually out of pocket. I'm lucky in that I can get improved versions of something I have and explore other newer to me music. I know I'm fortunate.

Anyway it seems clear to me the two camps here and I know which I'm in. Wonder when this will really become available.

Edited April 19, 2021 by jazzbo

[Brad]

1 minute ago, jazzbo said:

Cool. I'm not interested in the Tone Poet, new vinly reissues don't interest me at all and are freaking expensive. And to me they are not both music, they are reproduced difffrerently enough taht I choose one format as sounding best and stick with it.

When I bought the Mobley set I sold my other copies of the material on disc and actually paid for the set with the sales. So for me it was a win win--better sound, homogenous mastering over all the sessions and very little money actually out of pocket. 

Anyway it seems clear to me the two camps here and I know which I'm in. Wonder when this will really become available.

I’ve kept my individual Mobley copies and didn’t plan on selling them.

I don’t understand this “two camps” thing. For me there’s just the music. I still buy CDs but I also like to buy vinyl and some of the Tone Ports are the best version of the music I’ve heard. My first TP was The Kicker and the first time I put it on it was like “wow,” so since then I’ve become more interested in vinyl.

The Henderson set is supposed to be out the 26th. 

[jazzbo]

Cool. I'm happy for you, we're just viewing these things differently and that's cool. If your system doesn't present the two formats differently that's cool. I'm done kicking this horse. Looking forward to the set. in the meantime I'll listen to the new Armstrong set and digest the huge booklet!

My comment about the "two camps" were those that are planning to get the set and those planning not to.

Edited April 19, 2021 by jazzbo

[romualdo]

4 hours ago, jazzbo said:

In part many new transfers have been used for recent releases from Universal Japan and the US and they do sound really good, to me and on my system better than earlier cd releases. With Addey adding his expertise to the mastering the Mobley set sounded even a bit better. So the claim has meat to me, and there's potentially more great sounding discs in the future (or not).

So, Addey will be re-tweaking the Japanese SHM versions/masters from the mid last decade?

[Dub Modal]

12 minutes ago, romualdo said:

So, Addey will be re-tweaking the Japanese SHM versions/masters from the mid last decade?

Possibly. Did those versions have all of these alternate takes?