Big John Patton Sighting?

[Dan Gould]

Not to stretch this out too long but keeping up with Mike's ongoing evaluation, I sent him a clip of the group talking in between tunes and he identifies someone saying "rippin' my shit" as sounding a great deal like BJP. I sent it back to him, isolated and boosted, and since he is in touch with Patton's widow Thelma, who better to ID her husband?  So hopefully we can be even more definitive here soon.

This is pretty thrilling but I'd like to get the last bit of doubt out before I go all in. 

[sidewinder]

It was interesting to read the text with regards to what it says about the ‘Memphis...’ album, namely that BN ‘nearly released it 2 times’ back in the day.

Edited January 11, 2021 by sidewinder

[Justin V]

8 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Justin are you aware of the Le Quartet recording on Black & Blue? That was done with Percy France but as a featured guest. He plays on about 1/2 of the cuts and the rest are the trio.  If you do vinyl used copies are around, if you are CD only I'd recommend CD Japan, it came out for the very first time on CD last August. Very decent sound transfer.

Thanks.  I didn't know about that one.  I need more Black and Blue albums in my life.

[brownie]

Howard Johnson's présence on any session was a sure sign that it would be swinging and enjjoyable..

Heard him in thé 60's with Archie Shepp and Gil Evans among others.

Hé  will be missed.!

Edited January 12, 2021 by brownie
Wrong thread. HAvé Posted this on the correct thread

[Dan Gould]

Does anyone have contact with Zorn or anyone else known to have worked with BJP?

I am wondering about other people who might hear my clip of who we think is probably BJP speaking, to verify.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Dan Gould

[Michael Weiss]

I worked at the Flamingo Lounge with the Junior Cook/Bill Hardman Quintet dozens of times. There was an upright piano there. No organ in the club. So from the information you've provided there's no reason not to assume BJP didn't play just because there wasn't an organ there. It's not a record date, just a joint with a piano.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=177304842700839

[Dan Gould]

14 hours ago, Michael Weiss said:

I worked at the Flamingo Lounge with the Junior Cook/Bill Hardman Quintet dozens of times. There was an upright piano there. No organ in the club. So from the information you've provided there's no reason not to assume BJP didn't play just because there wasn't an organ there. It's not a record date, just a joint with a piano.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=177304842700839

True but I'm having trouble finding confirmation that BJP was gigging on piano at the time. It being a potentially special occasion might have led to Leonard Gaskin being sure to roll tape that night but who knows. 

[Dan Gould]

On 1/24/2021 at 6:27 PM, Michael Weiss said:

I worked at the Flamingo Lounge with the Junior Cook/Bill Hardman Quintet dozens of times. There was an upright piano there. No organ in the club. So from the information you've provided there's no reason not to assume BJP didn't play just because there wasn't an organ there. It's not a record date, just a joint with a piano.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=177304842700839

So I have secured a photo from this gig ... but this is the only one and the pianist is looking down ... how I wish Leonard had gotten a nice group photo of the musicians together but alas, no.  So what do you think?

Interestingly, Michael mentions the upright piano yet this is a nice grand piano. To me, that's circumstantial that BJP wanted something nice to play and got it. There are other reasons why a club would have a grand piano of course but ...

Photo credit:

Leonard Gaskin Papers, Archives Center, National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution

Edited February 5, 2021 by Dan Gould

[Dan Gould]

For the record, old friend Mike Flanigin AKA Soulstream has ID'd Big John Patton from his voice, his vocalizations, and now his body language in the above photo.

[andybleaden]

Just nipping in to say hi, thanks and wow

 

If you are still stuck. Go back to the live recordings we have of BJP at Smokes and with Ed Cherry etc later as there is lots of him in between sets and doing announcements...always sounded a little clipped or nasally as if he had a cold. My ears or a crap mic maybe but there were loads of him. announcing a little  Rhthmaning was was that comes to mind.

 

Last clue - with the photo - compare that to his face on the old release of Soul Connection...similar but not same time on Nilva  

https://www.google.com/search?q=soul+connection+john+patton&safe=strict&sxsrf=ALeKk03O9QUJfCOn5eG-oW6YXFQnUctE5w:1612690007098&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjizoW4utfuAhXDoXEKHY4qAa0Q_AUoAnoECAgQBA&biw=1366&bih=616#imgrc=rpjU5LagoDJt7M

 

To be very very specific as I have it on here now...

On the live at the Jazz Bakery (grim sound quality ) there is him talking away before each track

Counting them all in

 

Better than that 

There is a whole 53 seconds of John talking in between Scrapple

Live at Smoke July 27th 2001 Disc 3

[andybleaden]

On 09/01/2021 at 3:20 PM, Dan Gould said:

 

Dan - just sent you an update message with track in question to hear for yourself - let me know if the track does not work. 

 

Looking around I found a WHOLE heap of Big John recordings I forgot I had so - thanks!  That's my evening planned!

On 09/01/2021 at 3:20 PM, Dan Gould said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So I attained a new Percy France recording, October 1988 at Flamingo Lounge in Brooklyn. Percy announces musicians at the end of set 1 ... and its "John Patton" on piano, and Wes Anderson on drums. And I am thinking, I'll never know who these two guys are, any google hit will be for Big John, and for Wes Anderson the saxophonist.

Now it's been pointed out that maybe it actually could be Big John on piano?

My thought is "no" because Percy doesn't introduce him as such and there's no special crowd reaction either.  Then again the crowd is not too excited in general.

Does anyone know definitively where Big John would have been in 1988? (Where is Soul Stream aka Mike Flanigan when you need him?)

Maybe someone knows of a John Patton pianist in the late 80s on the NYC scene?

I gotta admit, the thought that this maybe could be Big John on piano with Percy France is pretty exciting.

 

edit to add: there's also the intriguing possibility that Leonard Gaskin brought his Walkman to record this gig, specifically because it was BJP?

 

[bertrand]

We have live recordings from Smoke? 

[andybleaden]

1 hour ago, bertrand said:

We have live recordings from Smoke? 

Yup. And many others. PM me or email andybleaden AT gmail.com

 

 

There are loads in all reality

 

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by andybleaden

[sidewinder]

The ‘Smoke’ stuff by BJP is really good.

[bertrand]

7 hours ago, andybleaden said:

Yup. And many others. PM me or email andybleaden AT gmail.com

 

 

There are loads in all reality

 

 

Will do!

[Dan Gould]

Well thanks to Andy Bleaden I ended up finding a guy who plays the organ, was part of the Newark NJ scene and ultimately wrote a dissertation on the organ club circuit and in particular the Newark scene. Unsurprisingly he knew Patton pretty well and told me that he saw him play piano twice at a couple of impromptu jam sessions.  Radam Schwartz says:

"I think it's a good chance to be Patton. The picture is hard to tell, but that's the way he had his head when he played,  and it's his complexion. His playing is sort of sparse using space and that's sort of his style, he was not a technician on the organ either. So all in all I would say it's a good bet to be Patton. "

 

[bertrand]

Radam wrote a dissertation on the topic? Where can we read it?

[Dan Gould]

12 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Radam wrote a dissertation on the topic? Where can we read it?

https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/37328/PDF/1/play/

[Dan Gould]

Case closed:

Ed Cherry has just informed me that it is Big John Patton saying "rippin' my shit" on the clip I sent him.  And he should know the man's voice since they were neighbors in Montclair NJ for a while back in the day.

So could I interest Zev and Cory in this recording?  Too bad this is owned by the Smithsonian and they'd have to negotiate an arrangement.

[JSngry]

Good work tracking this down, Dan!

[Dan Gould]

7 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Good work tracking this down, Dan!

Like a freakin' bloodhound I wouldn't stop until I had acceptable proof.

But can you imagine trying to do this pre-Internet/Facebook?

[JSngry]

not without a car and a trust fund...

[Dan Gould]

22 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Good work tracking this down, Dan!

You do realize you deserve considerable credit too for putting it into my mind that it even could be Big John. I was already prepared to say "oh well, we'll never know anything about this obscure pianist because any web search for information about John Patton, pianist, will be subsumed in a tidal wave of hits for Big John Patton, organist."

[JSngry]

Well....yeah. I saw that you said "John Patton" was on piano and, you know, I was like John Patton???

You've been kind enough to have kept be updated on your Percy Project, and let's just say...the outside world is in for a treat when it finally drops, an unexpected delight that has been "hiding in plain sight" for all these years.

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

Case closed:

Ed Cherry has just informed me that it is Big John Patton saying "rippin' my shit" on the clip I sent him.  And he should know the man's voice since they were neighbors in Montclair NJ for a while back in the day.

So could I interest Zev and Cory in this recording?  Too bad this is owned by the Smithsonian and they'd have to negotiate an arrangement.

The Flamingo Lounge recording? I would try Cory.