Groups whose sums are less than the parts

[jcam_44]

I know this has been discussed in the "What are you listening to?" thread at various times but I find it interesting when it comes up. It tends to be groups whom don't have a designated leader. I wish I could remember those mentioned before but I'm sure others will chime in. I have two that always come to mind when I think of these types of albums, the first being:

Noah Preminger Group - Zigsaw

 

Noah Preminger - Tenor Saxophone

John O'Gallagher - Alto Saxophone

Jason Palmer - Trumpet

Kris Davis - Piano

Kim Cass - Bass

Rudy Royston - Drums

Rob Schwimmer - Haken Continuum/Clavinet

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Kim and  Jason regularly play with Noah but I was expecting the addition of John, Kris and Rudy to take this music to another plane. I can't say I dislike it, but I feel with this specific group, it was going to be something that was much more moving and I would listen to more. I've only listened 3 times over the year its been out and every time I am left wanting more. I know this goes against the norm of a group without a leader but it is the one I think of most in this context. 

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The next release doesn't have as many big names but when I got it I was expecting more:

Continuum  - Act One

Gary Bartz - Alto Saxophone

Jean Toussaint - Soprano and Tenor Saxophone

Bill Mobley - Trumpet and Flugelhorn

Donald Brown - Piano

Essiet Essiet - Bass

Billy Kilson - Drums

Anga Diaz - Percussion

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Honestly I don't remember how I heard about this release, I think I was looking into Donald Brown. Either way I pounced on it. After repeated listens nothing sticks. Every time I listening to it again, I'm always surprised how unmemorable it is. I can't remember a time where I wanted to re-listen to a solo or composition.

 

What other albums do you hear that you think, with this lineup, i was expecting more? 

[clifford_thornton]

Those Archie Shepp Full Moon Ensemble LPs on BYG-Actuel would qualify for me. Love all the players but the music just doesn't gel imo. Of course, I probably haven't pulled them out in 20 years or so.

[mikeweil]

I found the session Ike Quebec recorded for Blue Note with Duke Pearson and the Israel Crosby - Vernel Fournier team disappointing. Nice, but somewhat uninspired. Three tracks can be heard on this CD - most of what is heard fits the decription in the thread title.

Edited January 9, 2021 by mikeweil

[Pim]

 

 

this is the one I immediately thought of. I bought it blindly, excited by the personnel. Some of my favorite artists all together playing Trane repertoire. But when I gave it a spin I could not be more disappointed. This really is a very average bop date, nothing more than that. None of the musicians sound truly inspired.

Edited January 8, 2021 by Pim

[AllenLowe]

the Milestone All Stars, whom I saw at Yale, probably in the '70s? Who thought a group with Sonny Rollins, McCoy Tyner, Ron Carter and Al Foster could suck? But they really did.

[JSngry]

They didn't get a good record out of it, that's for sure. And you know if they could have, they would have.

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, AllenLowe said:

the Milestone All Stars, whom I saw at Yale, probably in the '70s? Who thought a group with Sonny Rollins, McCoy Tyner, Ron Carter and Al Foster could suck? But they really did.

Had the same experience with them in Chicago. Don't recall any specifics now as to why that was, but my guess is that Tyner and Rollins weren't that compatible.

[jcam_44]

4 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

the Milestone All Stars, whom I saw at Yale, probably in the '70s? Who thought a group with Sonny Rollins, McCoy Tyner, Ron Carter and Al Foster could suck? But they really did.

I think the Milestone All Stars were one of the groups mentioned that sparked my curiosity in this. 

 

10 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

Those Archie Shepp Full Moon Ensemble LPs on BYG-Actuel would qualify for me. Love all the players but the music just doesn't gel imo. Of course, I probably haven't pulled them out in 20 years or so.

Ahhh, I'm there with you. One of the few features of Alan Shorter and it left me wanting something more. 

7 hours ago, Pim said:

 

 

this is the one I immediately thought of. I bought it blindly, excited by the personnel. Some of my favorite artists all together playing Trane repertoire. But when I gave it a spin I could not be more disappointed. This really is a very average bop date, nothing more than that. None of the musicians sound truly inspired.

I haven't heard this one, I should check it out.... or I guess not. haha

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Sharp Nine Class of 2001 - On The Loose

Julius Tarantino - Alto Saxophone

Marcus Strickland - Tenor and Soprano Saxophone

Jeremy Pelt - Trumpet

Jeb Patton - Piano

Brandon Owens - Bass 

EJ Strickland - Drums

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Okay, I pulled this out again based on this thread. This is not a bad album. This is a good straight ahead jazz album. If I had friends over and this was in the background, they would approve. I honestly feel the problem with this album is the lack of more original compositions. 4 originals and 4 standards. The originals clearly stand out. Jeremy and EJ are the standouts to my ears. Marcus the strongest composition on the album. And this is probably a bit of an outlier since this was probably the first recording any of them released. The concept is really cool, but no one really seems to have established their voice yet so its just a bunch of cats playing good music. Reminds me of the New Composers Octet.....hmmmm...i should go back to the shelf for another listen of them soon.

[felser]

Has its merits, but when I have Sonny Simmons/Prince Lasha/Woody Shaw/Clifford Jordan in the house, I'd like them to do more than play on the chorus.   And note the hype on the cover.  You really want to put this ahead of, say, 'Last Date' and 'Out to Lunch'?  I do like the other album from these sessions, 'Iron Man', a lot better.  Also totally with the other posters on the Milestone Jazzstars.  I remember the deep disappointment when I shelled out my hard earned $ for that back in the day.  

 

[mjazzg]

16 hours ago, Pim said:

 

 

this is the one I immediately thought of. I bought it blindly, excited by the personnel. Some of my favorite artists all together playing Trane repertoire. But when I gave it a spin I could not be more disappointed. This really is a very average bop date, nothing more than that. None of the musicians sound truly inspired.

This has prompted me to listen to this, I've not done so in years which probably tells its own story.  First thing I notice is what a horrible bass sound, real rubber-band stuff.

Edit to add: Listened through now.  Some of the playing is really nice but the production is so 80s it's almost Stock, Waterman, Aitken levels  Everything's dialled into red.  This also goes for some of the playing too where subtlety and feeling is replaced by high-energy even on the ballad.  Someone needed to shout "Calm down everyone!" or have controlled the sugar intake on the day.

Edited January 9, 2021 by mjazzg

[sidewinder]

First group I thought of was this one..

6 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

This has prompted me to listen to this, I've not done so in years which probably tells its own story.  First thing I notice is what a horrible bass sound, real rubber-band stuff.

Glad I’ve avoided it then. It looked potentially intriguing.

[soulpope]

Let`s call this nomination "whining at a high level" .....

[soulpope]

Mal Waldron mostly succeeded to bring out the best in his "co-workers" .... not here, I`m afraid ....

[Pim]

33 minutes ago, soulpope said:

Mal Waldron mostly succeeded to bring out the best in his "co-workers" .... not here, I`m afraid ....

You’re probably not surprised but I do not agree with that at all. For me it contains some of Clifford Jordan’s most intense and best playing on record. The title track is a killer. One of my favorite Waldron records. Funny how two people could experience a record so differently.

[soulpope]

4 minutes ago, Pim said:

You’re probably not surprised but I do not agree with that at all. For me it contains some of Clifford Jordan’s most intense and best playing on record. The title track is a killer. One of my favorite Waldron records. Funny how two people could experience a record so differently.

Fair enough, different strokes for different folks then .... it`s not about missing intensity - but obviously my expectations were "sky high" .... btw to experience Clifford Jordan`s capabilities don`t hesitate to grab any recording with + Cedar Walton Trio ....

[Pim]

37 minutes ago, soulpope said:

Fair enough, different strokes for different folks then .... it`s not about missing intensity - but obviously my expectations were "sky high" .... btw to experience Clifford Jordan`s capabilities don`t hesitate to grab any recording with + Cedar Walton Trio ....

Love the Night of the Mark VII albums but I am less fond of the On Stage albums.

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, Pim said:

Love the Night of the Mark VII albums but I am less fond of the On Stage albums.

Ok ....

[Jim Duckworth]

I caught a show in Atlanta with Richard Davis, Victor Lewis, George Adams, and John Hicks.  It's hard to say at this late remove what I had expected, but it was a trainwreck from first to last.  Abolutely nothing was together:  at one point they were playing a line on the So What/Impressions change and never synched.  The highlight was seeing Andrew Hill having a very amused conversation with a very pleasant looking woman on my way out.  

[Pim]

4 hours ago, soulpope said:

Ok ....

We cant always agree can we?

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, Pim said:

We cant always agree can we?

Hi Pim, believe we found much common ground via our love for Mal Waldron  ....  it`s fine with me to disagree on individual platters / musicians / contributions .... actually this forum depends on the expression of different views ....

Edited January 9, 2021 by soulpope

[AllenLowe]

another one was an  infamous gig Sonny Rollins did at Town Hall - maybe 1969 or 1970 - with him and something like 6 bassists? Maybe more. It was a long time ago, and though I remember there was a notice in Downbeat about it, I cannot find any other documentation. I do remember that in the first half of the concert Jaki Byard appeared with a group that had one of those active names - like the Jazz Messengers, though not that of course. They were fine. Sonny came on, played against this weird bass background, and lasted maybe 15 minutes before he just walked off.

Years later I mentioned it to Jaki Byard, who cracked up and said to me: "yeah, what was Sonny thinking?"

[soulpope]

7 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

another one was an  infamous gig Sonny Rollins did at Town Hall - maybe 1969 or 1970 - with him and something like 6 bassists? Maybe more. It was a long time ago, and though I remember there was a notice in Downbeat about it, I cannot find any other documentation. I do remember that in the first half of the concert Jaki Byard appeared with a group that had one of those active names - like the Jazz Messengers, though not that of course. They were fine. Sonny came on, played against this weird bass background, and lasted maybe 15 minutes before he just walked off.

Years later I mentioned it to Jaki Byard, who cracked up and said to me: "yeah, what was Sonny thinking?"

Thnx for sharing ...