Lee Morgan - Complete Live at the Lighthouse

[Rooster_Ties]

28 minutes ago, david weiss said:

It is also remarkably consistent at a high level throughout. 

Of that, I had little doubt.  That's one of the big reasons -- despite the repetition of tracks -- that I'd be temped if the price were half-decent.

I'd pay considerably more (per disc) for a good document of Lee's band with Billy Harper, but Benny Maupin's tenor work around this time was nothing to sneeze at one bit.

It's a shame that almost no NEW live Joe Henderson has ever surfaced from the mid-to-late 60's, other than those two discs from the mid 90's (the ones with Joe and the Wynton Kelly trio from the Left Bank in '68).

I'd really give my eye's teeth for some more Joe Henderson, contemporaneous to either his stint with BN or Milestone even.

[soulpope]

10 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I'd pay considerably more (per disc) for a good document of Lee's band with Billy Harper, but Benny Maupin's tenor work around this time was nothing to sneeze at one bit.

It's a shame that almost no NEW live Joe Henderson has ever surfaced from the mid-to-late 60's, other than those two discs from the mid 90's (the ones with Joe and the Wynton Kelly trio from the Left Bank in '68).

Yes + yes ....

[david weiss]

48 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Of that, I had little doubt.  That's one of the big reasons -- despite the repetition of tracks -- that I'd be temped if the price were half-decent.

I'd pay considerably more (per disc) for a good document of Lee's band with Billy Harper, but Benny Maupin's tenor work around this time was nothing to sneeze at one bit.

It's a shame that almost no NEW live Joe Henderson has ever surfaced from the mid-to-late 60's, other than those two discs from the mid 90's (the ones with Joe and the Wynton Kelly trio from the Left Bank in '68).

I'd really give my eye's teeth for some more Joe Henderson, contemporaneous to either his stint with BN or Milestone even.

This is a no win situation for me. There is Joe Henderson out there but I can't talk about it except to say that sometimes I wonder how anything ever gets done at these bigger labels. There are also clearance issues on some of the options, no one wants to be Palo Altoed (thanks to whoever coined the term here).

Here is a clue....

Are you familiar with this? 3 tracks, 35 minutes or so total. This is the only track that has seen the light of day,...

[felser]

Just think of all the mid-60's to /early 70's Blakey that must be out there with all those fascinating lineups.  The Morgan is tempting, will probably be a price-point issue for me, and I am probably leaning "no".  "Live at the Lighthouse" was the fist jazz album I ever bought, so the BN configuration has sentimental appeal for me, so I would probably keep it anywasy, making the new set even more redundant for me.   

[bertrand]

It has come up several times that we are wondering what happened to the other tracks from Monterey. If they have been located, great, but that does not guarantee a release any time soon. No one wants to be Palo-Altoed, especially when THAT dreaded tape-hoarding, not a fuck-about-jazz giving label is involved. Hint: they are named after a brand of grape jelly.

I am not sworn to secrecy on my end having no ties to any record label, so I can say that the same guy who had some Lee Both/And tapes also approached me about some Joe Henderson from the Both/And. I offered to help him get it transferred (ie give him bread) to see if it overlaps with already released material, but we are not there yet. He would probably have to pitch it to the aforementioned label, which has right of first refusal but will neither be interested nor give clearance to another label to release it, even for a fee.

How anything ever gets done at the big labels is indeed a question I often ponder. When someone out of the goodness of their heart does all the legwork to make a self-proclaimed gatekeeper aware of a recording and the individual cannot be bothered to respond after three months to inform the person that the label is not interested, thus precluding the possibility of obtaining clearance to propose it to another label, that is tape-hoarding. And just plain rude.

Bertrand.

 

 

 

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, david weiss said:

Are you familiar with this? 3 tracks, 35 minutes or so total. This is the only track that has seen the light of day,...

Thanks Michael! I *am* totally aware of this, and somewhere around here is a thread that I myself created ~10-12 years ago, where I came up with the 3 tune names, and the length of time of the performance too, iirc. I also do have the one track (which is pretty fantastic), and I’m *thrilled* to hear that the whole thing is being considered for release. Thank you again!

[david weiss]

1 hour ago, felser said:

Just think of all the mid-60's to /early 70's Blakey that must be out there with all those fascinating lineups.  The Morgan is tempting, will probably be a price-point issue for me, and I am probably leaning "no".  "Live at the Lighthouse" was the fist jazz album I ever bought, so the BN configuration has sentimental appeal for me, so I would probably keep it anywasy, making the new set even more redundant for me.   

Plenty of Blakey

[david weiss]

1 hour ago, bertrand said:

It has come up several times that we are wondering what happened to the other tracks from Monterey. If they have been located, great, but that does not guarantee a release any time soon. No one wants to be Palo-Altoed, especially when THAT dreaded tape-hoarding, not a fuck-about-jazz giving label is involved. Hint: they are named after a brand of grape jelly.

I am not sworn to secrecy on my end having no ties to any record label, so I can say that the same guy who had some Lee Both/And tapes also approached me about some Joe Henderson from the Both/And. I offered to help him get it transferred (ie give him bread) to see if it overlaps with already released material, but we are not there yet. He would probably have to pitch it to the aforementioned label, which has right of first refusal but will neither be interested nor give clearance to another label to release it, even for a fee.

How anything ever gets done at the big labels is indeed a question I often ponder. When someone out of the goodness of their heart does all the legwork to make a self-proclaimed gatekeeper aware of a recording and the individual cannot be bothered to respond after three months to inform the person that the label is not interested, thus precluding the possibility of obtaining clearance to propose it to another label, that is tape-hoarding. And just plain rude.

Bertrand.

 

 

 

They have been where they have always been. It's just a matter of a label licensing it and paying all the costs related to releasing it, It's short though so it probably has to be paired with something else...

I've heard the Joe Henderson from the Both/And, it's great. Some of it came out on LP as Jazz Patterns (just like some Freddie Hubbard from the Both/And was bootlegged on LP as well). Ironically, it's from the same tour as the Live at the Lighthouse Joe Henderson recordings. Joe was on Milestone at the time which is now Concord. 

As for the rest, I don't think a consultant to a label is going to get you the clearance you need.

1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Thanks Michael! I *am* totally aware of this, and somewhere around here is a thread that I myself created ~10-12 years ago, where I came up with the 3 tune names, and the length of time of the performance too, iirc. I also do have the one track (which is pretty fantastic), and I’m *thrilled* to hear that the whole thing is being considered for release. Thank you again!

Interesting.... Wonder if I chimed in then.... I've heard the whole thing and it's great. There was speculation of pairing this with another show and I don't think that notion is dead yet. Things move slowly....

[bertrand]

2 hours ago, bertrand said:

It has come up several times that we are wondering what happened to the other tracks from Monterey. If they have been located, great, but that does not guarantee a release any time soon. No one wants to be Palo-Altoed, especially when THAT dreaded tape-hoarding, not a fuck-about-jazz giving label is involved. Hint: they are named after a brand of grape jelly.

I am not sworn to secrecy on my end having no ties to any record label, so I can say that the same guy who had some Lee Both/And tapes also approached me about some Joe Henderson from the Both/And. I offered to help him get it transferred (ie give him bread) to see if it overlaps with already released material, but we are not there yet. He would probably have to pitch it to the aforementioned label, which has right of first refusal but will neither be interested nor give clearance to another label to release it, even for a fee.

How anything ever gets done at the big labels is indeed a question I often ponder. When someone out of the goodness of their heart does all the legwork to make a self-proclaimed gatekeeper aware of a recording and the individual cannot be bothered to respond after three months to inform the person that the label is not interested, thus precluding the possibility of obtaining clearance to propose it to another label, that is tape-hoarding. And just plain rude.

Bertrand.

 

 

 

They have been where they have always been. It's just a matter of a label licensing it and paying all the costs related to releasing it, It's short though so it probably has to be paired with something else...

I've heard the Joe Henderson from the Both/And, it's great. Some of it came out on LP as Jazz Patterns (just like some Freddie Hubbard from the Both/And was bootlegged on LP as well). Ironically, it's from the same tour as the Live at the Lighthouse Joe Henderson recordings. Joe was on Milestone at the time which is now Concord. 

As for the rest, I don't think a consultant to a label is going to get you the clearance you need.

No, but he has to respond to me so I know that I have to then ask for clearance from someone who actually works at the label, either the president or someone below. Bypassing the consultant would have been preferable, but apparently I did not have the choice. They may trust his opinion, but if he blocks anyone from trying to get clearance he is essentially depriving them of a possible income source. I really just need a name of the person to whom one would request the clearance.

Good that the other Monterey tracks are not lost, as some had speculated in the past. I guess they are at Stanford. Why all three did not come out on that compilation is a mystery.

I've heard the Joe Henderson from the Both/And

This other guy may have a different night or different tunes, kind of like the Lee Morgan situation. I want to get it transferred anyway for preservation purposes and to know what he has. Releasability discussions are far down the road. Concord needs to get new management first.

Who was Joe Henderson signed with in 1983?

 

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, david weiss said:

Interesting.... Wonder if I chimed in then.... I've heard the whole thing and it's great. There was speculation of pairing this with another show and I don't think that notion is dead yet. Things move slowly....

I’m pretty sure I mentioned it more than once on the board (and in detail) — but here’s one such instance...

I’m glad I cut-n-pasted the info directly into that old thread, because it appears the source (link)  I found it at 7 years ago... is no longer active. (I also vaguely remember later finding something with track-times maybe? - or else I’m just dreaming I did).

Just for good measure, here it is again...

===============

17 September 1966

Elvin Jones-Joe Henderson Quartet

Performer(s): Jones, Elvin (drums); Henderson, Joe (tenor saxophone); Moore, Don (bass); Hutcherson, Bobby (vibraphone)

 

Inner Urge

Isotope

Shade of Jade

 

===============

[david weiss]

1 hour ago, bertrand said:

They have been where they have always been. It's just a matter of a label licensing it and paying all the costs related to releasing it, It's short though so it probably has to be paired with something else...

I've heard the Joe Henderson from the Both/And, it's great. Some of it came out on LP as Jazz Patterns (just like some Freddie Hubbard from the Both/And was bootlegged on LP as well). Ironically, it's from the same tour as the Live at the Lighthouse Joe Henderson recordings. Joe was on Milestone at the time which is now Concord. 

As for the rest, I don't think a consultant to a label is going to get you the clearance you need.

No, but he has to respond to me so I know that I have to then ask for clearance from someone who actually works at the label, either the president or someone below. Bypassing the consultant would have been preferable, but apparently I did not have the choice. They may trust his opinion, but if he blocks anyone from trying to get clearance he is essentially depriving them of a possible income source. I really just need a name of the person to whom one would request the clearance.

Good that the other Monterey tracks are not lost, as some had speculated in the past. I guess they are at Stanford. Why all three did not come out on that compilation is a mystery.

I've heard the Joe Henderson from the Both/And

This other guy may have a different night or different tunes, kind of like the Lee Morgan situation. I want to get it transferred anyway for preservation purposes and to know what he has. Releasability discussions are far down the road. Concord needs to get new management first.

Who was Joe Henderson signed with in 1983?

 

Why 1983?

18 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I’m pretty sure I mentioned it more than once on the board (and in detail) — but here’s one such instance...

I’m glad I cut-n-pasted the info directly into that old thread, because it appears the source (link)  I found it at 7 years ago... is no longer active. (I also vaguely remember later finding something with track-times maybe? - or else I’m just dreaming I did).

Just for good measure, here it is again...

===============

17 September 1966

Elvin Jones-Joe Henderson Quartet

Performer(s): Jones, Elvin (drums); Henderson, Joe (tenor saxophone); Moore, Don (bass); Hutcherson, Bobby (vibraphone)

 

Inner Urge

Isotope

Shade of Jade

 

===============

I looked at the thread. I did not know this was slated for release at some point. Didn't the Monterey series just die at a certain point? Good idea to pair it with the 1994 trio date. It's a shame that never came out.... Hopefully, it will see the light of day eventually....

[bertrand]

Oh, just wondering aloud.

[david weiss]

But which project was recorded in 1983? I don't think he was on a label then...

[Rooster_Ties]

I would have thought that the relative “commercial viability” of Joe Henderson would have resulted in at least some sort of lost recordings of him being released over the last 20 years.

But as far as I’m remembering, I think almost the only truly then ‘NEW’ Joe Henderson that’s been released in close to 2 decades(!) is that one Erich Kleinschuster led session for Austrian(?) Radio in 1968 (first issued in 2005).

And before that, the Charlie Haden pianoless trio with Joe at Montreal (1989), released in 2003 on Verve.

Is there anything else I’m forgetting by Joe — or prominently with Joe — released since 2000?

Edited December 22, 2020 by Rooster_Ties

[Niko]

Dorham/Henderson on Uptown came out in 2010...

[Rooster_Ties]

9 minutes ago, Niko said:

Dorham/Henderson on Uptown came out in 2010...

Oh yeah, forgot about that one.

Have to confess to not having ever picked that one up yet,  but will eventually I imagine.

But what I’m really looking for is a live leader-date by Joe in the 60’s.

As it stands, all there really is live with Joe (in the 60’s) are 2 or maybe 3 short Horace Silver live dates circa 1966 (iirc), plus that one with/by Nat Adderly in ‘67, and one or two Thad/Mel big band things from ‘69 (plus the Uptown Dorham thing from ‘63).

A bit, sure, but given how much Joe recorded in the 60’s (incl. tons of sideman work), I would have thought a few more live documents would have surfaced.

[JSngry]

What indications do you have that Joe worked a lot as a leader in the 60s?

[Rooster_Ties]

41 minutes ago, JSngry said:

What indications do you have that Joe worked a lot as a leader in the 60s?

Oh, I’m not assuming he worked as a leader a lot.

1) Ideally I’d love to have a live document of a Joe leader-date from the 60’s (just dreaming).

2) Absent that, Joe did record a LOT in the 60’s — what, 35+ dates as a sideman? — so I presume he played a lot live as a sideman in the 60’s.

I’m just surprised so (relatively) few documents of him live (as a sideman) have ever surfaced from the 60’s.

Wouldn’t he have gigged with Lee Morgan, or Freddie Hubbard, or Blue Mitchell? Or maybe a time or few with McCoy Tyner?

Surely as a working musician, he had to have had a variety of gigs to pay the bills, no?

Just seems like someone as well-documented on such a wide variety of studio dates (by, what? - close to 15 other leaders’ dates), would seemed to have avoided having been recorded live by all but a few times (in that decade).

[Guy Berger]

On 12/21/2020 at 7:10 AM, CJ Shearn said:

I think there is quite a bit of irony here that some people won't be buying this set because if we look at say Trane's Village Vanguard or Miles' Plugged Nickel a lot of the same music is repeated from set to set yet the music is vastly different.  If there is too much redundancy in the Lighthouse material, I will hold onto the 3 disc set as a sort of best of distillation

I like the 3CD set (especially for Bennie Maupin) but this band wasn't anywhere near as good as the other two you mention.

[bertrand]

Joe Henderson Discography (jazzdiscography.com)

He stayed longer with Horace than I realized.

Lots of leader gigs with no known recording.

This was new to me (I knew about the Vanguard gigs). A gig at an Opera House has a higher probability of a recording:

Date: February 24-25, 1967
Location: Civic Opera House, Chicago, IL
Label: [no known recording]

Miles Davis (ldr), Joe Henderson, Wayne Shorter (ts), Miles Davis (t)

a.

[unknown titles]

Chicago Defender: 18 February 1967, p.13

DB: 6 April 1967 (vol. 34 no. 7), p.5 reports,

The World Series of Jazz, headlining the Miles Davis Sextet (tenorist Joe Henderson was added to the group)...brought out large audiences for its three performances at the Civic Opera House last month..."

Darlene Chan might know about this one:

Date: April 1967
Location: UC Berkeley Jazz Festival, Berkeley, CA
Label: [no known recording]

Miles Davis (ldr), Joe Henderson, Wayne Shorter (ts), Miles Davis (t)

a.

[unknown titles]

SF Examiner Friday, 6 October 1995.

"In April 1967, two months before the Monterey Pop Festival, the UC Fraternity Council's Spring Week activities included a two-day jazz festival featuring such performers as the Miles Davis Sextet (with Wayne Shorter and Joe Henderson on saxes), the Modern Jazz Quartet, Horace Silver Quintet and the Bill Evans trio."

The gig with Booker Ervin in Laurel, MD might be nice to find...

 

[Dan Gould]

59 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Joe Henderson Discography (jazzdiscography.com)

He stayed longer with Horace than I realized.

Lots of leader gigs with no known recording.

 

 

I take it you have no direct or indirect knowledge if a cassette exists for this one:

Date: 11/14/1965
Location: Left Bank Jazz Society - Madison Club, Baltimore, MD
Label: [no known recording]

Freddie Hubbard (ldr), Joe Henderson (ts), Freddie Hubbard (t), John Hicks (p), Arthur Harper (b), Clifford Jarvis (d)

 

I imagine there are more, no time to go thru the rest of that gig-ography.

[bertrand]

This is not one I have heard was recorded, but with Left Bank there are many unknowns...

[david weiss]

4 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

I take it you have no direct or indirect knowledge if a cassette exists for this one:

Date: 11/14/1965
Location: Left Bank Jazz Society - Madison Club, Baltimore, MD
Label: [no known recording]

Freddie Hubbard (ldr), Joe Henderson (ts), Freddie Hubbard (t), John Hicks (p), Arthur Harper (b), Clifford Jarvis (d)

 

I imagine there are more, no time to go thru the rest of that gig-ography.

I have not come across this one....

9 hours ago, JSngry said:

What indications do you have that Joe worked a lot as a leader in the 60s?

A lot probably doesn't accurately describe the situation....

We know he led gigs at Slugs and the Left Bank at the very least in the '60s....

[bertrand]

A lot of Slug's dates are listed in the discography, but there is no knowledge of any recordings. Could they exist? Possibly.

[felser]

8 hours ago, bertrand said:

This is not one I have heard was recorded, but with Left Bank there are many unknowns...

And many session recordings with substandard sound quality.