Hasaan Ibn Ali – Metaphysics: The Lost Atlantic Album

[jcam_44]

The cd sound is as expected for something recorded of that time. Nothing impressive and I doubt much that can be done about it. Oden is the weakest link in my opinion and far to forward in the mix, to the point I found it distracting. Only gave it one spin, may grow on me with more listens but I didn’t find it particularly memorable. 

[clifford_thornton]

Huh. I like Pope as a saxophonist but he might not have found his footing at this early date. Still, interested in hearing it. What does the CD package look like? I fear the slim line throwaway cardboard that labels like Impulse have migrated to. 

[Chuck Nessa]

39 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Huh. I like Pope as a saxophonist but he might not have found his footing at this early date. Still, interested in hearing it. What does the CD package look like? I fear the slim line throwaway cardboard that labels like Impulse have migrated to. 

Standard digipack with notes in the pocket.

[jcam_44]

notes are excellent

[felser]

Finishing up listening to this now.  It's very good, but certainly would not have been revelatory in late 1965.  It most reminds me of "The World of Cecil Taylor", which was recorded five years earlier.  And Odean Pope on this album finds himself in the same situation as Archie Shepp did on that one.  A good young player who has not yet fully found his personal style, overwhelmed in some senses by a very very strong pianist.   This also happened on many of the mid-late 70's McCoy Tyner albums (and when I saw him in performance in that period), where he just ate sax players alive.   The Hasaan is recommended as an interesting listen, and I'm glad to have it, but it really has also been overhyped IMO.

[JSngry]

I want to hear the compositions, first and foremost.

[Rooster_Ties]

Hasaan didn’t make it too easy on himself, in terms of what will be the obvious inclination to compare/contrast with his debut with Max. I, for one, think The Legendary is nothing short of a near-masterpiece — so almost anything is going to be hard to live up to with that(!) as everyone’s only real touchstone in terms of Hasaan’s writing, approach, and technique.

I haven’t gotten a copy of the new one (yet), and only know what I’ve heard from the zoom-cast a couple weeks ago (just two tunes).

Plan to lay my hands on a copy in the next month or so, soon as I can find enough things in-stock from Dusty Groove to put in an order of about 6-8 titles, give or take.

Edited April 27, 2021 by Rooster_Ties

[bertrand]

11 hours ago, felser said:

Finishing up listening to this now.  It's very good, but certainly would not have been revelatory in late 1965.  It most reminds me of "The World of Cecil Taylor", which was recorded five years earlier.  And Odean Pope on this album finds himself in the same situation as Archie Shepp did on that one.  A good young player who has not yet fully found his personal style, overwhelmed in some senses by a very very strong pianist.   This also happened on many of the mid-late 70's McCoy Tyner albums (and when I saw him in performance in that period), where he just ate sax players alive.   The Hasaan is recommended as an interesting listen, and I'm glad to have it, but it really has also been overhyped IMO.

but it really has also been overhyped IMO.

Just be thankful it wasn't put out by Resonance

 

[JSngry]

Getting my first run-through this morning, and so far, it's as I hoped/expected. Biting/Bouncing piano trio music with tenor as a lead melodic voice. The real action is in the trio, which is very much carrying on as before. Dramatic, percussive, and the compositions every bit as distinct as their predecessors. I'm not finding it at all over-hyped, it's exactly what I was wanting, expectations happily met. I think it's very much of a piece with the trio abum, and when the Andylasherans put them together into a single package at some point, do not be surprised.

It's a unique type of jazz, they done packed up and moved to the outskirts of MonkTown, same as early Cecil, Andrew, later Elmo Hope, "all" those guys who had definite notions of form and function and of bebop being and existential linguistic literary foundation and not a greeting card gig. I love it that there are no "standards" on here, or anyting that could pass for a "standard". Oh, ok, "Metaphysics" is "Confirmation" changes, but hey...metaphysics, kinetic energy in action, not a Happy Hallmark.

I guess the only thing I could ask is, ok, Odean was already in Philly and getting his Max connect together, but...maybe Bill Barron? Just wondering if?

And oh, by the way - Art Davis.

[JSngry]

The more I listen to this, the more I like it. I like music that brings it like this.,.

[felser]

Hypothetical question, can't really be answered with certainty but maybe interesting to speculate.  Had this been released on Atlantic in early 1966 instead of on Omnivore in early 2021, how much  attention would it have received?  How much attention did the trio album with Roach receive when it was out?   I do like the album, don't get me wrong on  that.  But I like hundreds of albums from that era.

[JSngry]

The OG was pretty much ignored then, so this one would have been equally ignored. I'd like to know what the first pressing was. Pretty sure it was small, and that there wasn't a second. Finding a copy used when I started looking for it (in the late 1970s) was damn near impossible, as was finding anybody who had had it, or, really, anybody who had actually heard it. I knew one guy - one. I've actually gotten two LP copies over the years, and both are cutouts.

It doesn't even belong on Atlantic, it's more like one of those sub-underground Savoy records. It's a cult record, then and now. The only Max Atlantic record that had any staying power in the catalog was Drums Unlimited.

A more germane point, though, has nothing to do with 1966, and eerythng to do with 2021 - if you walked into a club and heard a band playing like this (on either album), what would you think? I'd be, like, damn, IT LIVES!!!!

Only, you know, it doesn't, not really, not this, not anymore.

 

[felser]

40 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The OG was pretty much ignored then, so this one would have been equally ignored. I'd like to know what the first pressing was. Pretty sure it was small, and that there wasn't a second. Finding a copy used when I started looking for it (in the late 1970s) was damn near impossible, as was finding anybody who had had it, or, really, anybody who had actually heard it. I knew one guy - one. I've actually gotten two LP copies over the years, and both are cutouts.

It doesn't even belong on Atlantic, it's more like one of those sub-underground Savoy records. It's a cult record, then and now. The only Max Atlantic record that had any staying power in the catalog was Drums Unlimited.

A more germane point, though, has nothing to do with 1966, and eerythng to do with 2021 - if you walked into a club and heard a band playing like this (on either album), what would you think? I'd be, like, damn, IT LIVES!!!!

Only, you know, it doesn't, not really, not this, not anymore.

 

Good point on if we heard it live today.  I had Roach's "Members Don't Get Weary" on LP in the early 70s but that may have been a cutout.  Never knew the Hasaan album existed until the CD era.  Savoy is also a good point.  I like that Valdo Williams album a lot.

Edited April 28, 2021 by felser

[JSngry]

Another point of reference, imo, is Andrew!!!!!!!!!!!!!! only of course no Bobby and no RVG to smooth it out (so to speak). Same kind of time as fulcrum for various inching patterns of punching instead of as a beat to play.

I really like this drummer here, too. Not Max, who could be, but he gets it and is not at all hesitant or other type of wrong.

If you want attitude like this today, there's certain hip hops. If you want music like this today.. buy this or the few other records.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sorry, after 2 tries I couldn't make it through the cd because the sound was so irritating to me. I can't believe something more couldn't have been done.

[jlhoots]

Ouch. I'll listen & decide for myself. My copy just shipped.

[JSngry]

Now I'm afraid that if I take it out the Discman to play it I'll stop liking it.

[Dub Modal]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

if you walked into a club and heard a band playing like this (on either album), what would you think? I'd be, like, damn, IT LIVES!!!!

I pretty much think about this all the time when listening to older music that never got its due. I even carry this same sentiment over on some modern pop tracks where should the vocals be stripped and a live band was playing the music - noses that get turned up otherwise would all of a sudden stay steady while the jaws dropped.

I don't have this record yet. Need to get it. 

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Sorry, after 2 tries I couldn't make it through the cd because the sound was so irritating to me. I can't believe something more couldn't have been done.

About the distressingly murky sound, I find that things can be improved a fair bit if one increases the volume level considerably and also boosts treble some. The trick is to get Hasaan's piano to sound as much like a piano as possible; then things begin to fall into place to some degree.

[bertrand]

18 hours ago, JSngry said:

Another point of reference, imo, is Andrew!!!!!!!!!!!!!! only of course no Bobby and no RVG to smooth it out (so to speak). Same kind of time as fulcrum for various inching patterns of punching instead of as a beat to play.

I really like this drummer here, too. Not Max, who could be, but he gets it and is not at all hesitant or other type of wrong.

If you want attitude like this today, there's certain hip hops. If you want music like this today.. buy this or the few other records.

I keep hearing that hearing Elmo Hope's music, and presumably discussions with him, was what help Hasaan really figure out where he wanted to go. Do you hear it in the music?

[JSngry]

Definitely. Elmo Hope's composing  is still profoundly underappreciated. People who want to catch up on/to it are strongly encouraged to do so.

 

[bertrand]

Are the first couple of notes from the short version of Atlantic Ones (last track) missing? Probably part of the sloppy transfer job that missed an entire song.

Not a big deal, just curious. Glad they included it anyway.

[bertrand]

Correction - a whole piano introduction is missing. That makes more sense, but track 10 seems to start with a fade-in.

[LWayne]

Any contacts at Omnivore Recordings that I can contact. Bought the LP, but the cardboard sleeve has a tear. The email form on the Omnivore Recordings website goes to an independent fulfillment center that is useless. No offer to provide a new jacket, just advice to return to the brick and mortar store where I purchased.

I had previous problems with cardboard gatefold covers with Resonance Records for a Record Store Day release, and they replaced it immediately..

Doubt the fulfillment center will contact Omnivore as they promised. It has been two weeks. No to take matters into my own hands.

Like the recording a lot. Just wish there was better quality control and that missing notion called customer service.

LWayne

[Clunky]

7 hours ago, LWayne said:

Any contacts at Omnivore Recordings that I can contact. Bought the LP, but the cardboard sleeve has a tear. The email form on the Omnivore Recordings website goes to an independent fulfillment center that is useless. No offer to provide a new jacket, just advice to return to the brick and mortar store where I purchased.

I had previous problems with cardboard gatefold covers with Resonance Records for a Record Store Day release, and they replaced it immediately..

Doubt the fulfillment center will contact Omnivore as they promised. It has been two weeks. No to take matters into my own hands.

Like the recording a lot. Just wish there was better quality control and that missing notion called customer service.

LWayne

Sorry hear of the issues with your copy.

I ordered an LP edition before I saw the comments above regarding sound quality. It was there with some trepidation that I listened to the LP when it arrived yesterday. I find the sound pretty decent with a good balance. Perhaps there's a difference between the sound of the different formats. Pope's sax sound is a little grating but that's more about him than the recording itself. He sounds a touch like Jackie McLean - ie a bit flat or off pitch. (I'm no musician so don't shoot me, if I'm using the wrong terms here). So I was pleasantly surprised. I don't think it's some rediscovered masterpiece but interesting to hear nonetheless.