Weather Report: Black Market

[Peter]

IMHO this is crap. The goal seems to be to play the same mindless patterns over and over as fast as they can. This is the stuff that killed jazz until the 1980s and the young lions (Wynton, et al ). No ofense meant to those who like it, and I certainly won't be offended by those who take issue with my opinion.

[Joe G]

Is this for real?

Strongly held opinions are fine, as long as they are well informed.

Edit: Check it out Peter: Good stuff

Edited September 2, 2003 by Joe G

[Peter]

Maybe I'll change my nickname to moldy fig!

[DrJ]

I'm WAY late in posting my reply here, but I will simply say that this one DID NOT grab me on listening now, at this point in my life. It sounds flat, and meandering in many places. Unlike Peter, I don't find the problem is with show-offy playing or arena rock tendencies - the album is really subdued and moody, normally the right environment for great performances by Zawinul, but for some reason I don't find the tunes interesting at all, and unfortunately, as I remembered, I find the group way imbalanced toward Zawinul on this particular side. Plus, his keyboards sound way cheesy (for some reason, more than on many Weather Report recordings of about the same vintage).

It's not that I was expecting "Birdland, Parts 2-12" or anything, but this just isn't very good when evaluated on its own terms. Of the players, only Shorter appears to have been having a good day (or series of days)...certainly I can appreciate that and agree with some of the kudos he's been given in the prior discussion. But overall, my prior impressions from years ago were simply reconfirmed...that's exactly why this one has been gathering dust in my closet for years.

Simply put, I would take HEAVY WEATHER over BLACK MARKET any day of the week, as unfashionable as that might be, for better playing, better writing, better production, and a stronger sense of purpose and style. If all that sounds overly negative, please don't contrue it that way - I still dig much Weather Report, and I am still glad to have heard this one again (once will be enough for a long time) for Shorter's contributions if nothing else.

[Joe G]

Maybe I'll change my nickname to moldy fig!

Now that I can deal with!

[Guest youmustbe]

I'm listening to WR Berlin 75. Reminds me of why I don't really dig Black Market, other than Elegant People which is one of the great Wayne tunes, and killer performance.

It's the damned Lyricon that Wayne played. Can't always tell if it's Wayne or Joe playing...and what with Alphonso's Chapman Stick...part of the overkill that started to ruin fusion.

Wayne played it into 76 as I see from my photos of the band.

[Guest youmustbe]

Oh yeah, on the Berlin 75, at the end of Freezing Fire, as Wayne is wailing, Joe comps 'The In Crowd' underneath. Hip and so appropriate!

[rockefeller center]

Always loved the opening track with its train sounds, just as I enjoyed the steamship on "Arrival in New York" on ZAWINUL (Atlantic) album.

Ever listened to this steamship after upward shifting it two octaves?

[JSngry]

Yep.

[Capt. W./TX.]

A couple of observations from a confirmed WR junkie:

1.) I was always fascinated by the opening theme Zawinul wrote for "Gibraltar" (cut 3 of "Black Market"). It consists of four phrases. Each phrase is a variant and development of the one before it.

2.) WR, IMO, began as a band with an Ornette-like methodology (i.e. short group themes that lead in to mostly free improvisation; examples of this are "Directions', "Seventh Arrow" and

"Morning Lake". The orchestral difference came from the Fender-Rhodes piano (with Echoplex reverb and ring modulation), Miroslav Vitous' use of the wah-wah pedal and amp feedback, and the various percussionists WR employed. The playbook , seemingly written by Miles during the "Bitches' Brew" period, could actually be traced back to Ornette's group of the late 50's.

(Airto was originally asked to join WR, but declined. He did agree to play on the debut album. His parts were all overdubbed.)

The longer form stuff began with the "Sweetnighter" album and developed from there on. "Birdland", compositionally, appears to be structured along the same lines as the Ellington masterpieces of the 1939-42 period, like "Jack The Bear" and "Harlem Airshaft" (i.e. multi-thematic pieces not necessarily in standard AABA form). Zawinul obviously admired Duke and often featured himself at WR concerts playing solo renditions of Ellington material.

The longest-form WR pieces were probably Zawinul's "Nubian Sundance" and "Night Passage".

3.) According to interviews Zawinul gave during the 70's (WR's heyday), he got a lot of his own stuff merely by extemporizing at the piano with a tape recorder running, sending the tape to a transcriber/copyist and then editing and tweaking it later. One account I recall claimed that Zawinul's piece "The Juggler" (on "Heavy Weather"-and a great piece!) was totally through-composed by Joe at the piano; the form of the piece was exactly as he played it off the top of his head-no editing! Which leads me to believe that, had he chosen to, Zawinul could have done the extemporaneous solo piano route taken by Keith Jarrett, Paul Bley and others, and

probably cut ALL of them at it!

Peter Erskine told me in 1984 that Shorter's piece "Palladium" (on "Heavy Weather") was pieced together from three different tunes Wayne was working on. He also told me Zawinul was the greatest musician he'd ever worked with.

Edited February 9, 2004 by Capt. W./TX.

[jamn]

Weather Report Annotated Discography

I know I am another SUPER late-comer (a whole year!) on this thread but I have to put my two cents in.

I too, have been a WR lover since the very beginnning.

I can remember it like it was yesterday...Rottenbaur, Germany 1971 (a small farm town just outside Wuerzburg)....I was sitting in the living room of the farm house I was renting with 4 other members of the the U.S. Army 3rd Infantry Division Band......we were drinking some great local beer and the eating some brownies....really good brownies......when suddenly one of the other guys in the band comes in with a new album in his hand. "You're not going to believe this", he said. He was right. It was WR'S first album hot off the presses and that was the beginning of my love affair with this band. Over the next several months, we wore that record out. I also have I Sing the Body Electric (a bit of a come down after the first album, Sweetnighter (definately one of my least favorite), Mysterious Traveller (another amazing album that I completely wore out),

NOTE TO NEW DADDY JIM: Mysterious Traveller has an wonderfully entrancing and calming effect on young babies. When Zora is crying or won't go to sleep when you want her to, try lying on the floor, putting her on your stomach and playing MT. It worked every time with my two boys.

But I digress...I also have (or had at one time...my boys have been known to raid the old man's vinyl collection quite regularly over the years) Tale Spinnin', Black Market, Heavy Weather, Mr. Gone and 8:30. My favorites are Mysterious Traveller (wonder if they meant to misspell Traveler?), Weather Report, Heavy Weather and Black Market in that order.

I will not attempt to analyze this music because several board members (most notably JSangry) have done so far more eloquently than I ever could. I will say however, that this music moves me on a wide variety of levels and I have turned hundreds of students on to WR over the years, always with a positive result. Thank-you Joe for picking this.

One more thing....this is my first time checking out the AOW and I have to say, WOW! What an amazing thread. Makes me wonder why I have been spending so much time on Political threads and getting pissed off talking about GWB when I could be here talking about something I love. Reading this thread actually caused me to finally do something I've been meaning to do for months...I took my turntable out of my living room stereo system (dumped about a hundred CDs on the floor doing it) and brought it down to my inner sanctum where my computer is and hooked it up to my Bose wave radio. Not a bad sound at all. I am playing Mysterious Traveller as I write this. Heaven.

Again, this is a great thread on a great forum. Thanks to all who participate.

Edited May 3, 2004 by jamn

[jamn]

This is available now, looks very interesting.

[Joe G]

Better late than never, as they say.

Live and Unreleased has some great stuff on it. Especially the tracks with Chester Thompson IMO. BMG has it in their catalog.

[Jim Alfredson]

NOTE TO NEW DADDY JIM: Mysterious Traveller has an wonderfully entrancing and calming effect on young babies. When Zora is crying or won't go to sleep when you want her to, try lying on the floor, putting her on your stomach and playing MT. It worked every time with my two boys.

Jimmy Smith did the trick last night! I don't know who she likes more... Jimmy or Kenny Burrell.

[Big Al]

I am playing Mysterious Traveller as I write this. Heaven.

Again, this is a great thread on a great forum. Thanks to all who participate.

Well, it was this thread that led me to Mysterious Traveller, and I love 'em both (and Tale Spinnin', too!).

I hope you'll stay here and post more on these threads!

[jamn]

[take5]

I just discovered this forum and this thread, so I decided to re-listen to Black Market.

Weather Report albums currently in my collection: Black Market, Mysterious Traveler, Heavy Weather. Favorite: Mysterious Traveler (except the last couple tracks don't work for me)

In general, my interest in fusion and Weather Report has been waning in favor of other stuff, but I'll revisit them every so often.

Impressions and remeniscences of Black Market as I listen:

Street noise, entering the Black Market.

Track 1: groovy synth line/bass line, Zawinul toying with the melody.

Music like this is anchored by the bass player, and this dude sure ain't no slouch. His place in jazz is unfortunately shadowed by the great Jaco, but this guy had a great rhythmic sense that was based on simplicity. Oh, wait, he just did a little awkward thing 4:40 into the tune. Eh, no matter.

Ah, the low-key, track ending cut with the melody fade-out. What's blowing up over here?

Track 2: Cannon Ball

I haven't listened to this album in a while and I remember Jaco was on a couple tracks but forgot which. With the very first note of this tune I didn't need to look it up. Such command over everything he plays- he's not all chops and harmonics! This guy could play Mary Had A Little Lamb and would be gorgeous.

Earlier in the thread (or another?) people were talking about their favorite Jaco performances. As a huge Joni Mitchell fan of course I love his work on Heijira (and you must hear some live performances of that band!), but how cool is Jaco's first solo album? Donna Lee duet with congas into a Sam & Dave soul tune?

Track 3: Gibraltar

Wayne leading us into the groove with a mellow soprano. The old-timey (to this 26 yr old) keyboard cheese is in full effect. Yes, I know, for it's time, etc and so forth. But sometimes it's so cheesy- and I love it! Stevie Wonder, Rick Wakeman- these guys got some delightful sonic amusement out of their spankin' new keyboard chachkes.

Oh, nice crashing cymbal work 3:30 into the track.

And now all the instruments are playing the same riff leading into Wayne's blowing. I like that trick.

Track 4: Elegant People

Ah, Zawinul is using a piano sound! A nice break in the middle of the album. The pretty tune on the album.

Track 5: Three Clowns

The short ballad. Fusion ballads usually sound silly to me.

Track 6: Barbaby Coast

How the hell does Jaco get so much funk out of every note even when he never slaps or thumps or pops or whatever the hell Stanley Clark does all the time? It's too bad so many of Weather Report's songs later on weren't good enough to this.

Track 7: Herandnu

Coleco Vision sound effects are back in full effect. The opening of the track is more a sound collage, which is cool.

I'll be keeping the other AOW threads in my head next time I hit the record store, and I'd love to do my own at some point. This is cool.

[Joe G]

Hey, thanks for dropping by and sharing your thoughts...

... and for adding a little more padding to the longest AOW thread ever!

[Big Al]

Favorite: Mysterious Traveler (except the last couple tracks don't work for me)

I used to think this as well, until one night I was listening to them thru the headphones and it felt like I was being transported to some kind of exotic otherworld. But that's really the only way I can listen to them; they're awfully easy to lose in a cluttered background!

[mikeweil]

... and for adding a little more padding to the longest AOW thread ever!

Joe, you really must have hit some soft - or rather, some very strong - spot with most members here. Congratulations.

In retrospect, Tale Spinnin' ist still my favourite, for its sheer playfulness and spontaneity. That one aspect Jsngry mentioned, Jow Zawinul playing the keyboard of the listeners' feelings (my words), is what turned me away, as I prefer music that leves me the choice of being drawn inside or not - but Weather Report at the Black Market stage didn't leave you a choice - you either went inside or not.

I went inside back then of course, and don't regret it. I saw them live twice, with Alphonso Johnson, Chester Thompson and Alex Acuna, and later with Jaco, Acuna and Monolo Badrena. The latter was the better concert, the first one was more or less an energetic jam session in bad sound. But Jaco's eagerness for admiration of his prowess - others call it showmanship - was not for me.

What I find sad about Weather Report is that it developped - not evolved - from a cooperative unit - Shorter/Zawinul/Vitous - into a Zawinul group. Vitous ECM albums show how much he shaped the group in its early stages, and it is his sound and ideas that I miss with all later editions. On Black Market, its last traces have vanished.

Don't get me wrong - it's a fantastic album ...

[belsha]

i think it's a tie between BLACK MARKET and TALE SPINNIN', with MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER a close contender.

Heavy Weather is not a bad record, as a matter of fact it's a great record. But everything here is catchier, slicker, more immediately effective, in a word more pop-like and thus less original and haunting in the long run than on it's predecessors.

IMHO, the reason the pre-Heavy Weather bands were better is the rythm section. It's a paradox: Jaco Pastorious is most certainly the last great jazz genius and innovator, and in my opinion Peter Erskine is the most sensitive and versatile jazz drummer around to day. But they can't play as raunchy, as groovy, as heard hitting as Chester Thomposon or Ndugu Chancler with Alphonso Johnson. I think it's the combination of those earthy grooves with the more ethearal and intellectual world of Zawinul and Wayne that makes those records so great.

[Big Al]

Okay, so I've been spinning BLACK MARKET, MYSTERIOUS TRAVELLER, and TALE SPINNIN' on an endless loop today, and reviewing this old thread at the same time. Remembering that I'd bought and sold SWEETNIGHTER since this thread originally started, I went over to lala.com to see if, perhaps, I got rid of that disc prematurely.....

Talk about an understatement... WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING? I GOTTA GET THAT BACK!!!! That "Boogie Woogie Waltz" and that "125th Street Congress" have grooves that just won't quit, and when they do, I wish they hadn't!!!

I ^%$##&^%*%^$%( HATE when I do this!!!

[Hot Ptah]

Thanks for resurrecting this old thread, Big Al, which I would not have found otherwise. I enjoy JSngry's comments early on in the thread, and agree with them. I was there and found things to be just as he reports, regarding this album.

[Guy Berger]

The band on this album - and the one right after, that recorded Heavy Weather - had a live explosiveness that is usually not apparent on the albums. (I'm not talking about the plastic 8:30.) People who assume this was a "tame" band are mistaken.

[Hot Ptah]

The band on this album - and the one right after, that recorded Heavy Weather - had a live explosiveness that is usually not apparent on the albums. (I'm not talking about the plastic 8:30.) People who assume this was a "tame" band are mistaken.

Very true. The live shows did not have the depth of detail that was possible in the studio, but they were very hot and powerful live. They blew the roof off of the joint.