Weather Report: Black Market

[Jim Alfredson]

http://www.binkie.net/wrdisc/Black%20Market.html

Interesting what Zawinul says about the "mirror image" keyboard playing.

[pryan]

The album itself opens with the sounds of a crowd, the main voice vaugely reminiscent of the wacky female who shouts out "Perfidia" on one of the old Panart "Cuban Jam Session" albums from the 50s (sorry if that reference is Dennis Miller-esque in its obscurity). The thing is, though, that's NOT human speech - it's entirely synthisized, as are, I believe, all the other "sound effects" on the album.

Wow, that's interesting. I was kinda wondering about the voices, and assumed that they WERE real, taken from a recording of an actual marketplace (maybe from Africa?). I guess my assumption just goes to show how well Zawinul was able to successfully manipulate the synthesizers, in order to obtain the desired effect (or maybe I'm just a little slow). As for the train sounds, those don't seem to be as "real", IMO, although they do convey the message of sounding LIKE a train.

[Soul Stream]

glad to see jim back on the board. his input and analysis are always in depth, interesting and come from a lifetime of immersion in jazz....

[Joe G]

Thanks for finding that article Jimmy. The track notes were especially informative. And I like this quote from Wayne:

"There's no such thing as a one-day recording session anymore. Making a record is almost as complicated as making a movie. But on the other hand, I don't believe that there's any loss of spontaneity working like that. We've been taught to separate things falsely. Spontaneity can be recaptured. It's possible to slow it down, to control it. Just because you take care with the music doesn't mean you have to lose the excitement. Anyway, while people are sitting and complaining because they've lost the spontaneity of the last moment, they're losing the spontaneity of the next moment."

Check out the article pryan; those sound effects are also discussed.

[pryan]

Very interesting article, recommended reading for those wishing to further their understanding on this album.

BTW, here's what is said about the voices:

Regarding the voices heard at the beginning of "Black Market," Alex Acuña explained their origin to Zawinul biographer Brian Glasser. "The song 'Black Market,' at the start there's the sound of many people talking, like a market. Joe copied that from a tape of mine. I had that tape playing in my room when we were in adjoining rooms on tour, and he came in and said, 'Hey, Alex, let me hear that!' Then he borrowed the tape, and it's now 'Black Market.' That's a tape that I made in my house with my family, live. I was listening to music and I was recording music, and my family and children were in the background--that's there voices. He never told me that, but I knew it because I can recognize it."

[randissimo]

Wow! What an interesting thread... Thanks Joe!!!!

When I first heard a Weather Report record in 1971 with the first album "Milky Way", I was blown away with Shorter & Zawinul's approach to music! ...That's the way I wanted to play!! I had been listening to Miles and Frank Zappa at that time....

I have heard Weather Report several times in concert and at one time or another have owned all of their recordings.

Black Market is a magical and timeless record!

[Joe G]

Big Al, what say you? :rsmile:

[JSngry]

Very interesting article, recommended reading for those wishing to further their understanding on this album.

BTW, here's what is said about the voices:

Regarding the voices heard at the beginning of "Black Market," Alex Acuña explained their origin to Zawinul biographer Brian Glasser. "The song 'Black Market,' at the start there's the sound of many people talking, like a market. Joe copied that from a tape of mine. I had that tape playing in my room when we were in adjoining rooms on tour, and he came in and said, 'Hey, Alex, let me hear that!' Then he borrowed the tape, and it's now 'Black Market.' That's a tape that I made in my house with my family, live. I was listening to music and I was recording music, and my family and children were in the background--that's there voices. He never told me that, but I knew it because I can recognize it."

Yeah, I read that, and I still remember Zawinul saying they're synthisized all the way. I go with Zawinul - a close listen reveals no actual words being spoken, merely the SOUNDS of voices. Listen REALLY closely, and the "artificiality" makes itself heard, but only then.

Acuna also says, "You recall the song 'Elegant People?' [Wayne] wrote that because of the way I play. He didn't tell me that, but I knew it, because he is like a tailor--he makes the suit to fit the person. So it was because I was in the band." Notice that in both cases, "(They) never told (him) that. I think that perhaps Mr. Acuna might be feeling the fire just a bit too warmly.

[bertrand]

I have been told (although I never found the source) that Wayne once said in an interview that he wrote 'Elegant People' in his college years. I did read an interview where he said that he frustrated his composition teacher by mixing styles, and according to the interview I did not read, 'Elegant People' was the piece in question.

So, unless Wayne knew Alex Acuna in 1952-1956...

In his speech at Berklee, Wayne also seemd to be saying that he wrote 'Aung San Suu Kyi' in college as well, although it had to have had a different title back then, of course.

Bertrand.

[Big Al]

Big Al, what say you? :rsmile:

Wellllll....... I just don't know!!! Really, I've listened to this album at least ten times by now, read this thread a few times (and really, this has been one of the best AotW threads; all the posts (and Sangrey's in particular) have been particularly enlightening), checked out that link (which was also very helpful, BTW); I've listened to this album in a variety of settings: once in the kitchen while making dinner (and really got down with the groove of "Black Market"); once while falling asleep; all day at work on Monday; today in the car at lunch (not driving, just parked under a tree on Division Street, waiting for a train to go by). Every listening experience has been different: at one point, I really got into the beat. Another time, the synthesizers were just too overbearing. Another time, I started hearing subtle nuances that I'd missed in previous listenings. (Hence the reason it's taken so long to post: every time I think I've got a post completed, I listen to it again and think, "Drat! Gotta re-write it AGAIN!!!" In fact, I'll probably change my mind again after I post THIS!!!)

All this to say, it's hard to judge an album that sounds brand new and different every time I put it on. And I guess I really can't think of a better compliment for it than that!

I did want to comment on something the great Sangrey said, about "you had to be there:" Having grown up in the over-synthesized 80's, hearing a record full of them is akin to putting on a Genesis record (not that that's a bad thing: at least Collins & Co. had the good sense to hire Chester Thompson to be their road drummer, and anyone who's heard Seconds Out knows the powerful funk he brings to an otherwise above-average art rock band, IMHO). Hearing this record for the first time in 2003, it really is hard to imagine what this sounded like when it first came out in the 70s. I mean, it sounds like it could've come out yesterday, and even after 20+ years, still sounds fresher than a lot of the music coming out today.

Having said that, though, this will probably be the only WR record I ever get. I've heard Heavy Weather before, and to me, there's something very mechanical about that record, like the communication between virtuosos broke down somewhere. I could be wrong, though (I don't spend too much time trying to figure out why I don't like a particular album), and maybe it'll hit me later. But the lineup on Black Market, which seems to have only lasted for this one album, is the one that does it for me!

Whew! I'll bet that was longer than Sangrey's! (Unfortunately, it wasn't nearly as profound!)

[Soul Stream]

I hate to be a party pooper, but I refuse to buy a Weather Report album. I've noticed a lot of talk lately about Weather Report by musician friends, media, ect. Seems like a bit of fusion jazz comeback is in store for us. However, I won't be down with that one.

I just can't get into it. Not to say it's not great music for many listeners, Shorter, Jaco, Joe...those guys are all genius no doubt. However their collective genius in this era just doesn't do it for me. Sorry, when I grew up fusion is what I thought jazz was, that's why I didn't dig it. It wasn't until I heard stuff from the 50's and 60's, did I realize what straight ahead jazz was and the door was opened.

Count me out on the resurgence.

[SEK]

I liked "Black Market" pretty well when it first appeared in the mid '70s. I think it was probably the best Weather Report record since their first few offerings (and better than their recordings that followed) and featured glimpses of the greatness that once had been Wayne Shorter along with some earthy (for Weather Report) sounds and rhythms. But it wore thin and "lite" relatively quickly for me (I kept it for about 2 years).

When I upgraded/improved my stereo a couple of years ago, my enthusiasm for electronic "jazz" - especially late '60s-early '70s Miles, Herbie's Mwandishi band, Mahavishnu John McLaughlin, and some early John Abercrombie - was reinvigorated. So I checked out what had been my favorite Weather Report recordings again. I still was generally underwhelmed and did not hold on to any Weather Report recordings for very long.

However, I'm enjoying reading the passionate and thought-provoking impressions shared in this thread (and it's great having Jim Sangrey back). Weather Report's "Black Market" is certainly proving to be a fine topic for discussion.

[Joe G]

Interesting post, Big Al! I think it's fascinating that your response to this album has been so varied and complex. You might try AfricaBrass' suggestion and give it a headphone listening, as there is a lot of detail that gets missed in the car. I agree that Heavy Weather sounds a little sterile by comparison, though it does have its' moments of greatness. I want to check out some of the other titles mentioned on this thread, like Tale Spinnin and Mysterious Traveller. randissimo has the recent live set, which I'd like to borrow at least. I don't see myself becoming a WR completist, however.

Re: "the great Sangrey"; No Shit! Those posts are very well written. Better than 90% of what I read in the major jazz magazines.

[mr jazz]

Great discussion, but that's par for the course here. Good to see all the old BNBB posters resurfacing. I've been into a heavy rotation of mid 60s Miles lately so playing this album was a natural progression. I've always liked BM more so than HW. I remember seeing these guys right after the jaco era and being so impressed with Wayne's playing especially on soprano. Only certain players can make synths work in jazz. Zawinul is one, Corea another. Good choice for AOW.

[JSngry]

I'd not rule out checking out ALL of Weather Report's albums up to AND including HEAVY WEATHER (a "pop" album after the fact, not before it, and although definitely not as "loose" as their previous work, still very well written and performed).

The first two (3 if you count the incindeary LIVE IN TOKYO import) are totally different than anything to come later - very improvisational, with an "everybody solo, nobody solo" (their phrase at the time) approach. The music just unfolds gradually and organically, as the main voices (& you'd have to count Miroslav Vitous as one of them) plays what is needed (and when), and otherwise respects the silence. EXCEPT for LIVE IN TOKYO, which is some of the fiercest electric jazz (as opposed to "fusion", which it definitely is not, by ANY standard) at least to my ears) on record, in my opinion.

With SWEETNIGHTER & MYSTERIOUS TRAVELER, the focus becomes more compositional, but such compositions they are, especially on the latter. This is the period where Zawinul really begins feeling his oats and becoming the dominant compositional voice, but Wayne is still a key lead voice and contributer of some beautiful pieces. The former is definitely "transitional", but "Boogie Woogie Waltz" is one of those pieces where it seems like nothing REALLY happens, and KEEPS not happening, but by the time it's over, you're in a trance and want to hear it again. And again. This was a REALLY killer piece live. MYSTERIOUS TRAVELER is the band's first unqualified masterpiece, in my opinion. The seemingly exponential expansion of synthesizer technology had finally reached the point where Zawinul could begin to paint the colors he'd been hearing, and paint them he did, in rich and varied hues, using Wayne to exquisite effect. Wayne never really played a lot in WR from here on out (at least on recordings - live was another story altogether), but what he DID play carried an enormous punch. If it were really that simple to do what he did with this group, then everybody could do it, and we'd live in a far better world than we now do!

TALE SPINNIN' is basically a funky jam album, but with these guys, that means something different than it would for anybody else. As Lon has noted, it's a fine album with a really nasty groove throughout. This is close as WR ever got to being a "jam band", and it ain't a bad place to be. But things changed...

I can sympathize with those who have reservations, hesitations, or outright dislike for WR for any number of reasons - the electronics, the "pop" elements (although, truth be told, there's a LOT more "Third World" influences in their work than anything else, at least until Jaco came on boar), and it not being "real" jazz. I feel that way myself about a LOT of what happened in the 70s, notably the whole "jazz-rock" big band and horn band scene. Except for the cornerstones/archetypes of the idiom, Fusion as a genre is something that I've not had ANY enthusiasm for since about 1975 or so. But Weather Report, as I've said previously, still strikes me as something else entirely. If things got a bit (lots. actually) wierd in the Jaco-and-beyond years, the albums up until then still strike me as a very rich body of work full of new ideas, and above all, musical substance. And even the later albums have moments (or more) of really inspired, creative music that defies easy categorization.

In these post-Marsailis times, the idea of "real" or "pure" jazz is still very much in the collective consiousness. But I did not grow up in those times, and the barriers/categories/whatever that are still "hot buttons" in the jazz world today seem a bit artificial and unnecessary to me. I checked out Weather Report from their first album on, and the music seemed a totally logical and creative use of all the elements and concepts that were "in the air" at the time, free of contrivance and/or condescension to commercial trends. Zawinul has ALWAYS had a populist bent to his esthetic, but I believe he comes by it honestly - how else can you explain "Mercy Mercy Mercy" AND "His Last Journey"? One's "about" pure unadulterated blue collar African-American soulfulness, the other about his grandfather's funeral in Austria. Hell, even "In A Silent Way" was supposedly inspired by Zawinul's memories as an Austrian shepherd boy. This is not some abstract musico who live in the realm of the theoretical and obscure, this is a guy who first and foremost is A GUY! a pretty wack one with all sorts of wild sounds floating around in his head, but a guy nevertheless - a real "man of the people", so to speak.

So too is Wayne, in his often enigmatic, "cosmic" way. Wayne's always talked about the "universal", not as something that only a physicist or a holy man can grasp, but as something that we are ALL a part of. If he's as ethereal in his speech as he is in his playing, let's not confuse eliptical with evasive or solitary with isolated. Wayne in Weather Report was a consitently VOCAL player, using his instrument to sing, cajole, joke, and otherwise "speak". Very, VERY seldom do you hear Wayne in WR play in a way that indicates that he's thinking in a purely "musical" (ie - theoretical) manner - there's nearly always a very human impulse in everything he plays, and often, the less he PLAYS, the more he SAYS.

My point is merely that for all the electricity, energy, and eventual hype, Weather Report was first and foremost a "people band" - they played about life and people, they didn't get all off into various musical devices/tricks/gimmicks like so many other bands and artists that they're still lumped together with did readily, willingly, and ably. They had an "international" makeup from the beginning, and they did all the way through their existence with the notable exception of the Jaco-Erskine quartet - the most "rock" oriented lineup and output, as well as the most comercially successful. Their music is definitely not "pure" jazz, and it may not be jazz at all from SWEETNIGHTER forth, certainly not jazz of the African-American, finger-poppin, nightclub variety. But that's not who they were as people - Zawinul's from AUSTRIA for crying out loud! Wayne remarked as early as, I believe, SPEAK NO EVIL that he was beginning to feel the need to broaden his outlook beyond what he later refered to as "nightclub music", and in the first edition, what with Airto & Miroslav, you had a band that almost HAD to play something besides straight-ahead, 4/4 jazz, such was the combination of backgrounds and potent creative minds involved (and really, after Wayne's stint with Miles, where he played as fast and furious as possible for so many years, wouldn't the opposite approach seem the logical next step?.)

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind one way or the other, but suffice it to say that Weather Report is a band that continues to hold much fond fascination for me in all its phases. "Jazz" it may or may not be, but creative music it most definitely is (at least most of the time), and for me, that's enough to give it my respect, and, given it's liberal usage of jazz, R&B, and "folk" (Third World AND "Old World") elements, all musics that I have deep affection and affinity for, my enthusiasm.

[Joe G]

Your enthusiasm is contagious! Thanks for sharing your views as one who has been there from the beginning, Jim. I'm going to spend some time looking into the WR catalog for sure.

I love that thought about Joe and Wayne's music having a very humanistic bent. We can listen to music in many ways, listening for all sorts of different elements. A very telling thing to listen for is intention. What is this music telling us about the musician(s) playing it? Do they want to impress us, make us dance, get laid, incite violence, sell records, praise God, express deep emotion, etc., etc., The reason so much pop music leaves me totally empty is that the sole purpose of it is to garner the biggest share of the garbage market. I've heard songs lately that seem to exist only to make 14 year old girls cry so they will buy the cd and put the poster on their wall. That's fine if you are a 14 year old girl, I guess. Just doesn't do anything for me. And music that is too intellectually oriented can also leave me cold-I need the heart to be in there, too, even if I do find it technically impressive.

There's a section of the title track from Black Market that really seems to have that feeling of being in touch with a sort of earthy joy that I think Jim is talking about. It's the transitional section that separates what is basically the two halves of the song; it's in 7/4 time I believe. If you listen closely, you can hear what sounds like, to me anyway, some groovy brother saying, "Yeah". As in, "right on." It's as if they are telling us, "Sure, we're the greatest fucking band in the world (Zawinal's words), but we're not above hanging out with you all and gettin' down." Or something along those lines.

Anyone else get that?

[Jim Alfredson]

"Back in Nineteen and Ninety-Two, we were a good band...."

[Joe G]

...but what he really helped us to discover was that we were the best!

[Big Al]

Anyone else get that?

Yup! In fact, I retract what I said earlier about not wanting any other WR albums. I'm with you, Joe, about wanting to check out the other albums mentioned in the notes for Black Market. Jim's comments were even more of a nudge to check 'em out as well.

And I have to agree with whoever said they preferred Alphonso Johnson's work better than Jaco's on this album. Count me in the minority of folks who think that Jaco is way overrated. Sure he can play the hell out of the bass, but who is he serving when he plays? When Johnson plays, he sounds as if he's part of the band, making his acrobatics work within the framework of the song without overwhelming it. Jaco, OTOH, does just the opposite. Johnsons playing never loses the funk, while Jaco has a tendency to succumb to the temptation to go overboard with the fretboard fireworks, leaving the rest of the band (not to mention the song) behind. A lot of people dig that; I 'm one of the few who don't.

[Joe G]

I'm one step ahead of you Big Al; I just got back from the local used CD shop where I managed to pick up the remasters of both Mysterious Traveller and Tale Spinnin', the latter of which was still wrapped!

Jaco's approach was a radical rethinking of the role the bass plays, and it seems like he definitely took it to an extreme. It had a huge influence on the generation of bassists who came after, including Marcus Miller, Mark Egan, and Gary Willis, among many others. It seems like the best of those players have refined the basic style and sound that Jaco pioneered so that the concept could be integrated with the traditional function of the bass guitar, and they wouldn't get kicked out of their bands for playing too much crazy nasally upper register shit.

Edited April 30, 2003 by Joe G

[AfricaBrass]

I've been enjoying this album so much that I'm going to pick up some Weather Report too.

I truly am surprised how much I like this cd.

Joe, now you've turned me on to Metheny and Weather Report. Thanks!

I want to get something recorded before this album. What would you guys suggest?

:rsmile:

[Joe G]

You're very welcome. I'm glad you are enjoying this music and the discussions about it as much as I am.

You did read Sangrey's last post, did you not? I couldn't offer a better set of recommendations than his!

[AfricaBrass]

I think I'll look for a copy of Mysterious Traveler.

:rsmile:

[Joe G]

I just gave Tale Spinnin' a good listen on headphones. Highly recommended.

[AfricaBrass]

I just picked up Mysterious Traveler. I just unwrapped it. I'm excited about hearing it. I wanted to get Tale Spinnin' too, but I didn't have enough. Maybe next time.

If you would have told me a couple years ago that I'd be buying Weather Report cds, I would have laughed. I really realize how narrow minded and elitist I have been in my musical tastes in the past.

I didn't realize how much I was missing out on. Thanks to all for your input here!

:rsmile: