Prestige/Jazzland/Riverside unissued sessions/tracks

[bertrand]

We had a thread about this a long time ago, was it on this board or Blue Note? I think I was trying to talk Fantasy into doing a Lost Sessions kind of CD.

In any case, I cannot find it.

Also: how do we know that there are not unissued sessions not listed in the discographies? This question could apply to Blue Note also, but to a much lesser degree.

 

[EKE BBB]

Bertrand: Stuart Kremsky was the tape archivist for Fantasy Records for over ten years. I would start by contacting him. He’s a nice guy.

You can get his current email at: https://mrstusrecordroom.blogspot.com/?m=1

[bertrand]

I actually had talked to Stu and a lot of the info in the thread was from him.

I did not know how to find him, thanks. So you are suggesting he might know about sessions not in the discographies?

I actually was working with him on something specific and we never resolved it before he was let go when there was the big takeover. I just sent an email tonight to Concord to try to revive my search. But I may want to get in touch with Stuart with some related questions depending on the answer to the email. 

[EKE BBB]

Not sure if he will be able to provide you with information not in the discographies.

When I was in touch with him, back in 2006, he was still working for Fantasy and he dug in their vaults, searching for the unissued Bobby Hutcherson-Tete Montoliu session. Unsuccessfully, to my loss.

[felser]

I can't imagine Concord springing for something like this.   What they've done to that catalog is a crime, and Fantasy was putting out some really nice packages from it before they sold.

[Brad]

7 minutes ago, felser said:

I can't imagine Concord springing for something like this.   What they've done to that catalog is a crime, and Fantasy was putting out some really nice packages from it before they sold.

I doubt they will spring for anything. Some have suggested Mosaics that incorporate sessions from labels owned by Concord. I doubt that will ever happen.

Chuck did warn us. 

[Bluesnik]

44 minutes ago, felser said:

and Fantasy was putting out some really nice packages

I remember one Jazz in San Francisco.

35 minutes ago, Brad said:

Chuck did warn us.

Yes, he did. I remember him advising everyone to hoard as many OJCs as possible.

[clifford_thornton]

54 minutes ago, Brad said:

I doubt they will spring for anything. Some have suggested Mosaics that incorporate sessions from labels owned by Concord. I doubt that will ever happen.

Chuck did warn us. 

yeah, they have really made a mess of the Takoma catalog. A friend was working with one of the Takoma artists, before that artist passed, and Concord basically did not want to license his music nor put it out themselves. Just holding an obscure album hostage for no gain.

[felser]

7 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

yeah, they have really made a mess of the Takoma catalog. A friend was working with one of the Takoma artists, before that artist passed, and Concord basically did not want to license his music nor put it out themselves. Just holding an obscure album hostage for no gain.

Maybe we'll see "John Fahey Plays for Lovers", a 34 minute compilation, next Valentine's day.  That seems to be their approach now.

[bertrand]

2 hours ago, Bluesnik said:

I remember one Jazz in San Francisco.

Yes, he did. I remember him advising everyone to hoard as many OJCs as possible.

And I did.

We will see where my inquiry goes. We can't assume things will always be this way. Sending an email was free.

I am not suggesting a Lost Sessions set, something with more 'commercial potential'. I just wanted to see the old thread because it was a good summary of what we knew, and included some info I got from Stu that I lost when I switched emails (I may have a print-out somewhere). One thing I remember is that he said the unissued track from the Bobby Timmons Soul Man record, Remembrance IIRC, was a piano solo. So either Stu heard the tape or it was written on the box. He also confirmed that the missing track on Larry Young's Groove Street existed. Here's Bill was the title, IIRC. I would be happy to buy upgrades of both if the missing songs were added.

Edited September 9, 2020 by bertrand

[clifford_thornton]

35 minutes ago, felser said:

Maybe we'll see "John Fahey Plays for Lovers", a 34 minute compilation, next Valentine's day.  That seems to be their approach now.

 

ha, it would not surprise me. Luckily this artist would have not been for lovers!

[kh1958]

47 minutes ago, felser said:

Maybe we'll see "John Fahey Plays for Lovers", a 34 minute compilation, next Valentine's day.  That seems to be their approach now.

That is not even original, as Prestige Records had a Plays for Lovers series.

[gmonahan]

They issued some of the greatest box sets ever. Too bad they sold to Concord before they had a chance (in my dreams) to issue a Gene Ammons Prestige box!

 

 

 

gregmo

[felser]

3 minutes ago, gmonahan said:

They issued some of the greatest box sets ever. Too bad they sold to Concord before they had a chance (in my dreams) to issue a Gene Ammons Prestige box!

 

 

 

gregmo

Agreed.  Those last three Coltrane box sets, the Miles First Quintet box set, the Evans Village Vanguard box set, Stitts Bits, the Sonny Rollins Prestige set, the Dolphy Prestige set, the Joe Henderson, all things of beauty.  A McCoy Tyner set would have also been great.

[bertrand]

9 hours ago, EKE BBB said:

Not sure if he will be able to provide you with information not in the discographies.

When I was in touch with him, back in 2006, he was still working for Fantasy and he dug in their vaults, searching for the unissued Bobby Hutcherson-Tete Montoliu session. Unsuccessfully, to my loss.

Is this session listed in discographies? What label was it slated for?

Edited September 9, 2020 by bertrand

[JSngry]

Sounds like it would be a Landmark project?

[EKE BBB]

16 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Is this session listed in discographies? What label was it slated for?

It is, in my Tete Montoliu discography. An outdated version is still available at Mike Fitzgerald’s Jazz Discography website:

https://www.jazzdiscography.com/Artists/Montoliu/tete-disc.php

 

————————————————————

Date: May 26, 1984
Location:  Oakland, CA
Label: Fantasy

Tete Montoliu (ldr), Bobby Hutcherson (vib), Tete Montoliu (p) 

a.	01	Solar  (Miles Davis, Chuck Wayne)
b.	02	You Are Too Beautiful  (Richard Rodgers, Lorenz Hart)
c.	03	There Is No Greater Love  (Isham Jones, Marty Symes)
d.	04	Theme For Ernie  (Fred Lacey)
e.	05	No Blues  (Miles Davis)
f.	06	Stella By Starlight  (Victor Young, Ned Washington)
g.	07	Lament  (J. J. Johnson)
h.	08	All Of You  (Cole Porter)
i.	09	Well, You Needn't  (Thelonious Monk)
j.	10	Pel Teu Amor [aka Ros�]  (Miquel Poal Aragall, Josep Ribas)
k.	11	Star Eyes  (Gene DePaul, Don Raye)
l.	12	A Night In Tunisia  (Dizzy Gillespie, Frank Paparelli)

Recorded at a local college or university - name needed.

Material for two albums was recorded but remains unissued. No trace of these recordings has been found in the Fantasy vaults.

————————————————————

[bertrand]

So how did you know about It? Is it listed in the Lord or somewhere else?

[EKE BBB]

Sorry, I only copied and pasted the live recording. In fact there was a studio recording a couple of days later:

---

Date: May 28, 1984
Location:  Fantasy Studios, Berkeley, CA
Label: Fantasy

Tete Montoliu (ldr), Bobby Hutcherson (vib), Tete Montoliu (p) 

a.

Love Letters  (Victor Young, Edward Heyman)

Additional unknown titles - reportedly all standard tunes. Material for a complete album was recorded but remains unissued. The LP was going to be called "Letter To J. H.". No trace of these recordings has been found in the Fantasy vaults.

---

 

[bertrand]

So what was your clue that the studio album exists?

[EKE BBB]

I got this information from Miquel Jurado, Tete´s biographer and one of his best friends in the last fifteen years of his life. He travelled with him worldwide, including his US gigs in the 80s, and used to write notes of every recording session he attended. Jurado owns a large collection with many rare Montoliu recordings.

 

Jurado was not present in those Fantasy sessions but, as he is also a good friend of Montserrat García-Albea, Tete´s widow, he took care and revised Tete´s "vault" when he died (in his own words, "many boxes with copies of the tapes from many of his commercial sessions, with private recordings, broadcasts..."), and confirmed to me that he had heard those tapes. Looks like the copy Tete received from the recording company only included “Love Letters” from the studio session, being the rest of the tunes standards, according to Tete’s remembrance.

 

I also remember some conversations with Mike Fitzgerald where we got some further assurance that those sessions were recorded by Fantasy, but can’t find that email exchange which dates from 15 years ago.

 

However, at my request, in 2006 Stuart kindly looked around Fantasy’s vault and in a number of different lists and files, and he was not able to find out anything about these sessions.

Edited September 9, 2020 by EKE BBB

[JSngry]

Are we sure that the label wasn't actually Landmark, not Fantasy? Hutch did a released record on Landmark a few months after this, and it was still a Keepnews thing, still using Fantasy studios, the whole shebang. Maybe Fantasy's vaults are not the place to look for the tapes, maybe Keepnews' holdings are.

1984

Bobby Hutcherson Quintet

Branford Marsalis, soprano, tenor sax; Bobby Hutcherson, vibes; George Cables, piano; Ray Drummond, bass; Philly Joe Jones, drums.

Fantasy Studios, Studio "C", Berkeley, CA, August 9 & 10, 1984

	Love Samba	Landmark LLP-501, LCD-1310-2
	Good Bait	Landmark LLP-501
	Highway One	Landmark LLP-501, LCD-1310-2
	In Walked Bud	-
	Montgomery	Landmark LLP-501
	Spring Is Here	-
	Israel	-

* Landmark LLP-501, LCD-1501-2   Bobby Hutcherson - Good Bait
* Landmark LCD-1310-2   Bobby Hutcherson - Landmarks

[bertrand]

That is a good point. Landmark recordings were not under the Fantasy/OJC umbrella, so they would not be controlled by Concord, correct? It might be worth getting in touch with Peter Keepnews.

In any case, I am starting to think of a bigger scenario: how much do we know about possible unissued Riverside recordings, and Jazzland to go along with it. The Prestige discographies show unissued tracks like the two I mentioned above, but how about Riverside/Jazzland? I am looking for either unissued sessions, or extra tracks (not just alternates) from issued sessions. That is what I wrote to Concord about yesterday. I have actual song titles.

Fact: there is at least one unissued Riverside date not in the discographies. It is a third JFK Quintet record with Joe Chambers on drums. The only discography it is in is Mike Fitzgerald's JFK leader discography, and that is because I told him about it. In fact, Joe called me today to tell me about an upcoming livestream he is doing in October, so I asked him. Yes, it was definitely for Riverside. I know a little more I got from another source, but I will not post it here quite yet. There are possibly a couple of Joe's pieces on it.

I will go even further and posit: is it possible there are Blue Note sessions not listed in the logs? Who can definitely reject that possibility who was not at the sessions? Disclaimer: I am not asking because of the Mobley Algerian war soundtrack.

Edited September 10, 2020 by bertrand

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Are we sure that the label wasn't actually Landmark, not Fantasy? Hutch did a released record on Landmark a few months after this, and it was still a Keepnews thing, still using Fantasy studios, the whole shebang. Maybe Fantasy's vaults are not the place to look for the tapes, maybe Keepnews' holdings are.

1984

Bobby Hutcherson Quintet

Branford Marsalis, soprano, tenor sax; Bobby Hutcherson, vibes; George Cables, piano; Ray Drummond, bass; Philly Joe Jones, drums.

Fantasy Studios, Studio "C", Berkeley, CA, August 9 & 10, 1984

	Love Samba	Landmark LLP-501, LCD-1310-2
	Good Bait	Landmark LLP-501
	Highway One	Landmark LLP-501, LCD-1310-2
	In Walked Bud	-
	Montgomery	Landmark LLP-501
	Spring Is Here	-
	Israel	-

* Landmark LLP-501, LCD-1501-2   Bobby Hutcherson - Good Bait
* Landmark LCD-1310-2   Bobby Hutcherson - Landmarks

Also:

Bobby Hutcherson - Color Schemes  (Landmark LLP-1508)

Bobby Hutcherson, vibes, marimba; Mulgrew Miller, piano; John Heard, bass; Billy Higgins, drums; Airto, percussion.

Fantasy Studios, Berkeley, CA, October 8-10, 1985

	Recorda-Me
	Bemsha Swing
	Rosemary, Rosemary
	Second-Hand Brown
	Whisper Not
	Color Scheme
	Remember
	Never Let Me Go

** also released on Landmark LCD-1508-2.

1986

Bobby Hutcherson - In The Vanguard  (Landmark LLP-1513)

Bobby Hutcherson, vibes, marimba; Kenny Barron, piano; Buster Williams, bass; Al Foster, drums.

"Village Vanguard", NYC, December 5 & 6, 1986

	Little Niles
	Estate
	Well, You Needn't
	Some Day My Prince Will Come
	Witchcraft
	I Wanna Stand Over There

** also released on Landmark LCD-1513-2.

Bobby Hutcherson - In The Vanguard  (Landmark LCD-1513-2)

same session.

"Village Vanguard", NYC, December 5 & 6, 1986

Young And Foolish

** originally released as Landmark LLP-1513 + 1 bonus track.

Bobby Hutcherson - Landmarks  (Landmark LCD-1310-2)

same session.

"Village Vanguard", NYC, December 5 & 6, 1986

Tune Up

1988

Bobby Hutcherson - Cruisin' The 'Bird  (Landmark LLP-1517)

Ralph Moore, soprano, tenor sax; Bobby Hutcherson, vibes, marimba; Buddy Montgomery, piano; Rufus Reid, bass; Victor Lewis, drums.

Fantasy Studios, Berkeley, CA, April 15 & 16, 1988

	All Or Nothing At All
	Cruisin' The 'Bird
	Sierra
	Imminent Treasures
	Chelsea Bridge
	Come Rain Or Come Shine
	On The Delta

** also released on Landmark LCD-1517-2.

Bobby Hutcherson - Cruisin' The 'Bird  (Landmark LCD-1517-2)

same session.

Fantasy Studios, Berkeley, CA, April 15 & 16, 1988

If You Do

** originally released as Landmark LLP-1517 + 1 bonus track.

1989

Bobby Hutcherson - Ambos Mundos  (Landmark LLP-1522)

James Spaulding, flute; Bobby Hutcherson, vibes, marimba; Smith Dobson, piano; Randy Vincent, guitar; Bruce Forman, guitar #2,7; Jeff Chambers, bass; Eddie Marshall, drums; Francisco Aguabella, congas; Orestes Vilato, timbales, congas; Roger Glenn, percussion, flute.

August-September, 1989

1.	Pomponio
2.	Tin Tin Deo
3.	Both Worlds
4.	Beep D' Bop
5.	Poema Para Ravel
6.	Yelapa
7.	Besame Mucho

** also released on Landmark LCD-1522-2.

Bobby Hutcherson - Ambos Mundos  (Landmark LCD-1522-2)

James Spaulding, flute; Bobby Hutcherson, vibes, marimba; Smith Dobson, piano; Randy Vincent, guitar; Jeff Chambers, bass; Eddie Marshall, drums; Francisco Aguabella, congas; Orestes Vilato, timbales, congas; Roger Glenn, percussion, flute.

August-September, 1989

Street Song

** originally released as Landmark LLP-1522 + 1 bonus track.

1991 (age 50)

Bobby Hutcherson - Mirage  (Landmark LCD-1529-2)

Bobby Hutcherson, marimba #1,7,9,10, vibes #2-8,10; Tommy Flanagan, piano; Peter Washington, bass #1-3,5-8,10; Billy Drummond, drums #1-3,5-8,10.

BMG Studios, NYC, February 15 & 18, 1991

1.	Nascimento
2.	Mirage
3.	Beyond The Bluebird
4.	Pannonica
5.	Del Valle
6.	I Am In Love
7.	Zingaro
8.	Groundwork
9.	Love Letters
10.	Heroes

[bertrand]

So apparently Concord bought Savoy, which bought 32jazz, which bought Muse and Landmark.

So Landmark was not under Fantasy, but it is under Concord. That is probably why Stu did not find the Hutcherson/Montoliu tape.

Edited September 10, 2020 by bertrand