Sonny Rollins "Rollins In Holland: 1967 Studio And Live Recordings"

[JSngry]

It's discouraging to think that the market for this music is such that the consumer needs to pay more and get less in order for the cash to add up right for the seller.

That's what it comes down to, right? In order to make X-amount of dollars, to get my money back (more or less), this is what's going to do it most efficiently.

I can tell you this, though - I am not going back to LP-only for new releases. That makes no sense to me, in any way. If that means networking for digital copies, that's what that means.

[Dmitry]

I almost read the whole thing...a formidable piece of work!

An old man with wrinkled female breasts is punching numbers on a Feliks M arithmometer, entering the product into a book, sometimes gasping at the paper. "There is a pattern here, damn 33 1/3 hipsters, we got you now. You, sire, are no Jazz Detective! A pathetic hack, that's who you are. Would it kill you to add an extra CD? No, it wouldn't, would it? " Seagulls are laughing at the dawn not far away from the shuttered window. 

 

[david weiss]

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

It's discouraging to think that the market for this music is such that the consumer needs to pay more and get less in order for the cash to add up right for the seller.

That's what it comes down to, right? In order to make X-amount of dollars, to get my money back (more or less), this is what's going to do it most efficiently.

I can tell you this, though - I am not going back to LP-only for new releases. That makes no sense to me, in any way. If that means networking for digital copies, that's what that means.

Record store day is the culprit perhaps. You can sell a ton of product at an inflated price as a limited edition box set on record store day. It's a money maker for a business that doesn't have a ton of these kind of opportunities anymore. Some of them are pretty cool boxes though, I guess if they can make their money this way and then sell all the same music in a reasonably priced CD box set or download, then I guess it's OK. Let the vinyl nuts throw their money around if it keeps the CD box sets at a reasonable price point. None of these have been vinyl only releases, correct? There has always been a CD or digital release as well, no? I have a huge vinyl collection but this stuff is beyond me....

10 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Cassette recordings can be really variable and in odd ways. I have used Jim's and Allen's help on a transfer of a recording of the Percy France quartet, giving me indications of what key they were playing in and what key was likely. Right in the middle of a section of tunes that needed a 1/2 step correction they played "A Train" in C, and this track needed no adjustment. How can that be, I thought. (And eventually I remembered I had another recording and verified that they do sound exactly the same.)

And there was no doubt that the batteries on this recording device were not new or mostly fresh, as the first tune was a blues in F# which Allen told me they'd never play in that key, so it was 1/2 step off right at jump ... and the final two tracks were full steps off, with Percy sounding like Mickey Mouse on his last stage announcement, and Castle Rock sounding like he was playing an alto.

Cassettes are a different animal completely....

4 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

And the vinyl initially listed for several dollars more. (Often the vinyl editions of any of these releases are much more expensive--my favorite point of comparison is the Brad Mehldau box-set that came out a few years back, which listed for about $30 on CD and $129 on vinyl.) So glad the cheaper CD version with more material was available!  Like Jsngry I grew up with vinyl, nothing against it (well, except for what it's doing in terms of disrupting potential additional content for CD releases, as discussed in this thread) and still occasionally buy new or used LPs, but almost always only if there's no CD counterpart available.  

For new releases, I prefer to get the CD over the LP. It most likely was recorded in a digital format and if not, mixed or mastered in a digital format so I don't need the vinyl for this.

Very few new recordings are analog all the way. I know one label specializes in this now but I think it's a subscription series or something. Hey, if it works for enough people, more power to them but unless it's something very special, I'm not biting....

Edited December 21, 2020 by david weiss

[jlhoots]

Newvelle I guess. Not for me.

[jcam_44]

43 minutes ago, david weiss said:

Very few new recordings a analog all the way. I know one label specializes in this now but I think it's a subscription series or something. Hey, if it works for enough people, more power to them but unless it's something very special, I'm not biting....

Well I think that is partially related to no one making tape anymore correct? So the only way to record is if you find NOS not to mention the inherent issues with the tape machines themselves. Honestly I always thought given the possibilities presented with a DAW, recording to tape was akin to spinning your own yarn. Yeah, you can do it but its really not worth it.

[david weiss]

42 minutes ago, jcam_44 said:

Well I think that is partially related to no one making tape anymore correct? So the only way to record is if you find NOS not to mention the inherent issues with the tape machines themselves. Honestly I always thought given the possibilities presented with a DAW, recording to tape was akin to spinning your own yarn. Yeah, you can do it but its really not worth it.

When digital took over the world, tape manufacturers did stop making tape and I remember having to scramble to clean out someone's stock to finish a recording. People are making tape again and there are, of course, some specialty shops that purport to do it better then ever. On a recent project, we had to buy 24 reels of tape because we were mixing down from analog 4 track recordings and we wanted to keep the whole process analog. I believe it was special ordered but there are options now. Everyone who did analog had to reboot and are still catching up. Pressing plants are overwhelmed and are behind on orders trying to catch up and will soon be overwhelmed again with everyone putting in orders for the next record store day madness...

[jcam_44]

5 minutes ago, david weiss said:

When digital took over the world, tape manufacturers did stop making tape and I remember having to scramble to clean out someone's stock to finish a recording. People are making tape again and there are, of course, some specialty shops that purport to do it better then ever. On a recent project, we had to buy 24 reels of tape because we were mixing down from analog 4 track recordings and we wanted to keep the whole process analog. I believe it was special ordered but there are options now. Everyone who did analog had to reboot and are still catching up. Pressing plants are overwhelmed and are behind on orders trying to catch up and will soon be overwhelmed again with everyone putting in orders for the next record store day madness...

Ah okay. That makes sense. It’s been about a decade since I was in the know back in Nashville and probably 3 years since I’ve been to NAMM. 

[Dub Modal]

On 8/26/2020 at 4:08 PM, JSngry said:

The first encounter, Sonny & Bennick get into a jousting match to see who's going to have the last word on how a tune ends, and it goes on waaaaaaaayyyyyyy longer than it would for mere mortals. If you're not LOL-ing by the end of it, hey, too bad for you and your joyless drained-empty soul!

Indeed. I just got the LP set of this release and that song got me (back) out of my chair and standing in amazement and for real LOL'ing at the end.

Speed/edit issues aside, the Arnhem performance is now essential for me. Ridiculously good, and was continually blowing my mind. I'd recommend this to anyone. SQ was about what I expected but the vinyl quality was exceptional. And the liners, esp those by Aidan Levy (who has a forthcoming bio coming out on Sonny - will definitely be picking this up) were a great read. 

[JSngry]

For sure, quibbling aside (some of it very valid, imo), this is still one of the more essential and (and!) significant issues in quite some time.

[Dub Modal]

Seriously getting spoiled by this release. Who else plays like this? I get some of it from Ornette's Golden Circle and Henderson at the VV...Rivers' Streams. Have also heard it with Blythe's trio on Spirits in the Field...but it really isn't super common...or I'm looking in the wrong places?  

I listened to some Coltrane after this record and found myself thinking they'd have been better off without Tyner () which has never crossed my mind before (I think it was India & Chim Chim Cheree - for whatever reason his playing just wasn't fitting where Elvin, Jimmy & Trane were going). 

[mjzee]

Listening to disc 2 now.  Fun, prime Sonny.  Great booklet, photos, and research, too.  The sound quality on the Arnhem performance is lacking, though - I hear very little bass.  Zev Feldman acknowledges such in his essay: "And we worked hard to optimize the audio and overall listening experience on the Arnhem performances, which, unfortunately, were not audiophile-quality recordings.  All I can say is that we're aware of the audio limitations and we believe they're as good-sounding now as they can be; certainly, they sound better than they have before."  Don't let that stop you from picking it up.  (And I did not notice the speed/pitch issues.)

[Larry Kart]

A particular Rollins sweet spot -- "Sonny Rollins Trio in Stockholm"(Dragon), rec. 3/1959 with Henry Grimes and Pete La Roca. If you can find a copy, count yourself lucky.