Sonny Rollins "Rollins In Holland: 1967 Studio And Live Recordings"

[soulpope]

11 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

How does one come by the bootleg version? 

You should communicate s via PN with "king ubu" .... I`ve asked a similar question years ago in the forum and got burned by the moderator(s) ....

[Dub Modal]

22 minutes ago, soulpope said:

You should communicate s via PN with "king ubu" .... I`ve asked a similar question years ago in the forum and got burned by the moderator(s) ....

Thanks! 

[JSngry]

8 hours ago, david weiss said:

On Love Walked In from the Arnhem show, he breaks into Four mid solo and based on other shows from this period, fully expected the band to follow him and they don't catch it at all. He plays Four next instead. They catch some of these things later on in the program though. 

What's "magic: here is that their failure (refusal?) to catch it right there but to instead keep forging ahead sets up a wonderful dynamic where from that second on, it sould go wither way. sonny drops hints of it moving ahead but just as a tease. And then after they all move, they keep ath ambiguity of are tehy staying here or going back all the way through. Net result is a whole multi-dimensionality of "place", both implicit and implied'

I've heard other gigs from this period where the players (Americans & British) get hung up, as you say, and it is often uncomfortable, faltering. But these guys, they just charge in, on, and ahead, and it gives sonny something to engage with. the whole multi-planar aspect of his playing that was the hallmark of his 60s work. Han Bennink is like some wormhole supercollider result of Baby Dodds and Max Roach, he's like, ok, you can go anywhere Sonny, I'm going to be everywhere you are going to be, no guessing, already there, and sonny is like, ok, let's see where all I can be with these guys...oh! Yeah! Anywhere!

It's an amazing trio. they don't just avoid the pitfalls, they deny them altogether.

[clifford_thornton]

5 hours ago, Mark13 said:

The organizer of the Persepolis-concert, Jaap van de Klomp, was interviewed by journalist Gijsbert Kamer of De Volkskrant recently and made no mention of any (radio-) recording taking place at his club. And he expressed no regrets either, referring to the Utrecht-concert as a disastrous event, with pianist Misha Mengelberg, who sat in -, spoiling the proceedings: 'Nobody was happy about that,'

The 'unknown source' of the Arnhem-tapes apparently was at the right concert.

 

I was just talking with a musician who was there when Mengelberg sat in; fascinating. He was of course a trickster and probably felt like doing some subversion. Too bad it wasn't recorded as I'd love to hear it.

[mjazzg]

Me too. Would love to hear Misha mixing it up

[Fer Urbina]

Re: what @king ubu and @david weiss were discussing about contents having to be equivalent regardless of format, FWIW, the latest Elemental release, Barney Wilen with Tete Montoliu is 11-tracks on double CD, 6 on single vinyl. Incidentally, I don't know whether Zev Feldman is involved in Elemental any more, but he's been in the past.

F

[jcam_44]

1 hour ago, Fer Urbina said:

Re: what @king ubu and @david weiss were discussing about contents having to be equivalent regardless of format, FWIW, the latest Elemental release, Barney Wilen with Tete Montoliu is 11-tracks on double CD, 6 on single vinyl. Incidentally, I don't know whether Zev Feldman is involved in Elemental any more, but he's been in the past.

F

As was the Dexter Gordon Live at Chateauvallon. The CD 5 tracks to the vinyl 2 tracks omitting almost an hour of music from the cd version. This is why I was wondering if it is a Resonance Rule. 

[bertrand]

9 minutes ago, jcam_44 said:

As was the Dexter Gordon Live at Chateauvallon. The CD 5 tracks to the vinyl 2 tracks omitting almost an hour of music from the cd version. This is why I was wondering if it is a Resonance Rule. 

I am sure it is not a Universal Mandate and only a Resonance thing.

 

 

14 hours ago, david weiss said:

"left/right channel shifting specifically track 2" Track 2 of CD 1 Four or something else?

We were not cutting tape, all edits were done digitally. 

My work on these projects is usually pretty specific. I usually vet the material and if they want edits, will explore the possibilities for them. I'm in New York and Resonance is in LA so I am not in the studio for all the production work. 

Why wouldn't a casual listener buy a live Sonny Rollins set? I assume they would buy the more affordable CD set or eventually download it or something instead of buying the LPs. 

A certain age group still buys CDs because hey, they have a CD player. 

I think the LP box is for a specific market. 

I think it is an industry wide mandate that all formats have to have the same exact material. It first came up for me when working on something for Blue Note. I don't know this for sure but everyone seems to be following this mandate. 

On 12/17/2020 at 7:01 PM, bresna said:

I think it's pretty funny that the purported "Jazz detective" missed all those edits for his CD release. I get making those cuts for the LP, but inexcusable for the CD.

On 9/17/2020 at 8:41 PM, Rooster_Ties said:

Also YouTube...

 

NOT BY MILES DAVIS!!! Max Roach even says so at Newport in 1958, it is in the Mosaic Box. 

 

[king ubu]

Well yeah, not composed by Miles Davis, but copyrighted, no? Merikin law and all that 

[david weiss]

On 12/17/2020 at 7:01 PM, bresna said:

I think it's pretty funny that the purported "Jazz detective" missed all those edits for his CD release. I get making those cuts for the LP, but inexcusable for the CD.

I'm not sure what you mean by missed all those edits. The label he works for made the edits and he was aware. 

On 12/17/2020 at 9:51 AM, jcam_44 said:

This is my complaint with the release as well. I assumed it was a better source also. But more than that, they could have taken the effort to clean up the audio. It just came across as a very lazy release but they put so much hype behind it.

 

This is unacceptable in my opinion. The cd release should have had the complete set. If they wanted to appease the vinyl-crowd give them a download card. My guess is they didn’t want to make two masters. I wonder if anyone has compared the vinyl to cd to see if they have different masterings. 

The LP was mastered by Kevin Grey and the CD was mastered by George Klabin and Fran Gala. George Klabin and Fran Gala have a sound restoration credit on the LP as well. Klabin is the head of Resonance Records. He owned a studio in New York in the '70s called Sound Ideas where the Charles Tolliver Big Band recorded their albums among others. He also did some live recording as a student and some of these have been the source material for some very good Resonance releases. 

[david weiss]

On 12/17/2020 at 11:03 AM, jcam_44 said:

I'm not really upset with incomplete tracks being left out. It just seems they spent more effort on the book then the music. Its a bit annoying in the book how they say they unearthed these recordings, then say purists will notice the incomplete tracks that were on bootlegs. If a boot exists you didn't "unearth" it. They also don't mention the edits to the music. Resonance does a good job for the most part, love the Grant Green releases from a few years ago but this is a disappointment. I also feel like the "countless hours spent fine tuning the sound" were misused. 

They do indicate they took these straight from the reels which indicates the boots were taken from these reels or they used the boots as a source (maybe the bootleg sound was better if the tapes were degraded).

Well, the two other recordings on this box are new to everyone, correct? So they "unearthed" something at least and then this would be about grammar semantics?

On 12/17/2020 at 0:03 PM, bertrand said:

I am happy to see that many of you are starting to pick up on some issues that have concerned me for a while. There is far too much effort spent on the packaging, that is one of my concerns.

The Grant Green could have included some tracks with Kenny Burrell, as anyone who watches the YouTube video from Maison de la Radio can tell (whoever posted that one is my hero). I am sure they left them off to avoid paying KB. Or maybe they did not fit on the vinyl, who knows.

Resonance pays the artists who appear on their recordings. Sometimes the problem might come from the other end. 

On 12/19/2020 at 7:45 PM, JSngry said:

I'm reminded of one of the most cruelly humorously sadistic musical experiences of my life, an afternoon corporate cocktail party whre I showed up ready to drink it out of the way and got there early so I could. And did. Long story short, the entire first set was spent listening to a guitarist and bassist easily a quarter tone aprt from each other, and both of them defiantly fending off the dirty looks of the other by waving their electronic tuners at each other to show that look motherfucker, I'M in tune, I ain't moving. The bandleader was too unwilling to stop the set, so the break waw a free for all of datadicking. I was definitely not drunk enough (but not for lack of trying, so I jsut said, "don't you cats use your ears?" And then headed for the bar, because, drunk enough was not yet happening.

Point just being, my 90s era cheap Casio, whatever it's tuned to, has this one sounding just a teence sharp to A, and a buttload flat to Bb, which is in line with what it feels like to me, away from my horn. Of course, "correct intonation" has never been a particularly avid pursuit for me, so there's always that. Still...that's what my ears tell me, not jsut my cheap Casio.

For that matter, my Tonette tells me that too, and that was my VERY first instrument.

Did you hear it as a half step flat when you first listened to the music or were you already influenced by this thread? I have to admit, I gave this session a more passive listen because no one was choosing which tunes to include or asking me to look for for edit points but with one passive listen, I didn't hear it as flat enough to go to the piano and check. I guess this one is on me as much as anyone. Even though my work for them is more piecemeal, being asked to do specific tasks instead of an overall job where I'm involved with everything sound-wise, I could have caught this but it didn't sound too flat to my naked ear and 30 cents or so is not that flat so I'm going to cling to that....

[david weiss]

On 12/19/2020 at 1:49 AM, jcam_44 said:

Yes. It starts around 2:30 if memory serves, The bass solo is sonically all over the place. Anyone can hear it. It’s obvious. 
 

I don’t think it’s an industry thing. The recent Christian Scott live album from March-ish gave you the full set as a download and the cd and LP were truncated. But that’s on Ropeadope which is an independent, if big 3 or is it 2 now I don’t know, require something different it would stand to reason why they are out of touch. 

I'll listen....

Independents wouldn't have to adhere to any mandate really unless their distributors needed to have things a certain way. Ropeadope (rightfully) thinks outside the box anyways. I did an album for them a few years back.

Your Christian Scott examples actually proves my point. They made their edits to make their album the way they wanted it and presumably made it a more streamlined (and to them a better) listening experience. That's the way we all make records whether you know about it or not. In the instant gratification era, it's always good to have more content to keep interest in the artist, hence the download only complete set. It probably had a different matrix or ID number as well. That would be a good idea for this project as well and I can ask though I usually don't have much say in these matters. I will tell you that one speed bump for this is that the artist did not want some of those tracks released either. 

[JSngry]

21 minutes ago, david weiss said:

Did you hear it as a half step flat when you first listened to the music or were you already influenced by this thread?

I just heard it as a little "off". You know, you hear a note or a fingering and your mind says, hmmm, that's not how that happens, not on my horn, Listening to a lot of bootlegs of this vintage and earlier, it's something you just get a feel for and then learn to shrug off. Checking it out on the keyboard, yes, that was triggered by this thread.

If you could get somebody to do the Graz trio tapes, withe trio with Max where Sonny literally sounds like an alto, and put those out at proper pitch, hey, redemption is yours@

[Д.Д.]

Sonny himself endorsed this release. Was he made aware of the edits? If yes, was he informed about why the edits were made?

Is anybody from Resonance going to inform Sonny about the wrong speed issue?   

Edited December 20, 2020 by Д.Д.

[david weiss]

On 12/19/2020 at 4:46 AM, king ubu said:

Uhm, nothing really - I was expressing the fact that when I heard about the upcoming release many moons ago (expectation management is something Resonance really does work hard on ... and apologies, but there as well I do not always think their choices are swell), I was *hoping* this might now be a radio archival version to replace the bootleg with.

As for the speed fixes, I'm only the messenger there, but feel free to behead me, no problem  

Interesting, many thanks!

This Rollins set, though, is not one that ought to be marketed for casual listeners - it doesn't have good enough sound for that (with the exception of the studio session kicking things off!), and it may be too challenging musically for many, as well ... but hey, from the business side it's sales (but there's an underlying business rationale there, too, isn't there? Will people continue buying Resonance product if they feel this is "bad" because the sound quality keeps them from enjoying it?)

The "industry wide mandate" is bogus b-s in my opinion - and it may be related to the industry being in deep sh*t: they're unwilling/unable to cope with different formats, see the ups and downs for each etc.

And since it seems you did suggest the edits (after all, considering circumstances, they had to be done and thus had to be done by someone!): chapeau! Pretending for a sec that I agree they're a necessity: they're well-done - that's for sure. And I'm serious now!  

I don't know Frank Jochemsen really past being cc'ed on a couple of e-mails perhaps but he is the source for this material I believe. No one has ever said that Arnhem was a radio broadcast so it makes me wonder if there was a potential better source out there. I'm told the material was on tape reels but nothing more then that. They were not pulled from a radio archive as far as I know (this of course is the best source for a sound upgrade). I guess I could e-mail the guy and double check. 

As for the speed, I'm just saying if both tunes were recorded back to back and are on the same tape reel (they were) then there would not be speed issues between the two tunes. That might be a tuning issue with the musicians. There is no piano so things can float a little here and there. You are not talking about a big leap here....

I don't think there is really a debate as to who this music is marketed for. A record label is trying to sell records. They made a huge investment here and need to recoup so they can make more records. The goal is to sell records and hopefully turn the casual listener onto some great music. I don't know how you draw a line here. The hype might be more then we can bear but that's the world we live in unfortunately. Honestly, I'd rather the new or casual listener hear the Arnhem material then the Vara session.

I think the philosophy with these labels is that they don't want material available on one format and not on the other. I think this has proven more problematic in the long run and they simply will not do it. This came up recently on another project I was working on for another label and some alternate takes did not see the light of day because they wanted to keep it a single LP and not make it a 2 record set. The LP is again dictating the market. I'm not saying I agree with any of this but this is what is happening.

I did not suggest the edits. Like a hitman, I don't chose who to hit, I just do the best job I can with what I'm assigned to do. 

 

On 12/19/2020 at 1:15 PM, Fer Urbina said:

Re: what @king ubu and @david weiss were discussing about contents having to be equivalent regardless of format, FWIW, the latest Elemental release, Barney Wilen with Tete Montoliu is 11-tracks on double CD, 6 on single vinyl. Incidentally, I don't know whether Zev Feldman is involved in Elemental any more, but he's been in the past.

F

Elemental is an independent label and can do what they want of course. I would think this is an unwise decision and would piss people off in both camps.

If you buy the LP, you are missing tracks so why would you buy the LP? Would one get a download card so they get to listen to the whole session at least. The bigger labels don't want to touch this scenario. Where is the thread about how fucked up this is? 

I believe Feldman is still involved in some projects with this label. 

28 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I just heard it as a little "off". You know, you hear a note or a fingering and your mind says, hmmm, that's not how that happens, not on my horn, Listening to a lot of bootlegs of this vintage and earlier, it's something you just get a feel for and then learn to shrug off. Checking it out on the keyboard, yes, that was triggered by this thread.

If you could get somebody to do the Graz trio tapes, withe trio with Max where Sonny literally sounds like an alto, and put those out at proper pitch, hey, redemption is yours@

I wonder if it's because it's your instrument. I'm used to saxophone tuning being all over the place so perhaps I just adjusted as always 

I can definitely hear it in the Graz tapes. Is it also on the Max Roach set? Freddie's voice seems a little high when he tells the audience to kiss his....

On 12/19/2020 at 2:33 PM, bertrand said:

I am sure it is not a Universal Mandate and only a Resonance thing.

 

 

NOT BY MILES DAVIS!!! Max Roach even says so at Newport in 1958, it is in the Mosaic Box. 

 

It's not only a Resonance thing and I've told you that privately already. 

Four and Tune Up are not by Miles but they are still registered to Miles by BMI. A record label can't change that, that's a court case or the threat of one at least and the principles are long gone. It's unfortunate but Vinson's family would have to make a claim, prove it and go from there... This is certainly not the only case like this and it can't be undone except by starting the process mentioned above...

[david weiss]

19 minutes ago, Д.Д. said:

Sonny himself endorsed this release. Was he made aware of the edits? If yes, was he informed about why the edits were made?

Is anybody from Resonance going to inform Sonny about the wrong speed issue?   

I wasn't the go-between with Sonny unfortunately so I can't say for sure. 

Sonny did not catch the speed issue but as said often now, it wasn't that off....

He heard the tracks before the edits and afterwards and approved the tracks. 

I do not know if he was made aware of the specific edits but he definitely heard the before and after. 

I believe some of the edits were contemplated because of something Sonny said about a certain track or a certain solo. 

 

[JSngry]

22 minutes ago, david weiss said:

I wonder if it's because it's your instrument. I'm used to saxophone tuning being all over the place so perhaps I just adjusted as always 

I can definitely hear it in the Graz tapes. Is it also on the Max Roach set? Freddie's voice seems a little high when he tells the audience to kiss his....

Yeah, deinitely an instrument thing. As I'm sure is true for you and trumpet there are just certain instrument-specific things that are done certain ways that you can feel when the pitch is off more than normal.

The whole Graz thing is jacked, pitch-wise, both with Sonny/Max and then with the Max/Freddie thing.

[soulpope]

The Sonny Rollins Trio Graz concert in a "restored" version would still qualify as major "find" .... at least with me .... btw Jymie Merritt's finest hours on tape ....

Edited December 20, 2020 by soulpope

[JSngry]

29 minutes ago, david weiss said:

As for the speed, I'm just saying if both tunes were recorded back to back and are on the same tape reel (they were) then there would not be speed issues between the two tunes. That might be a tuning issue with the musicians. There is no piano so things can float a little here and there. You are not talking about a big leap here....

Just to float all possibilities, there is always the possibility of fluctating current affecting the machine speed, up to an including the possibility of the machine being battery-powered. If these are not the OG tapes but first-generation copies, who knows for sure? All kinds of weirdmicro-geeky possibilities here...including improperly stored tape gradually stretching over time. Never rewind before storing, we all know now, but not sure that was common wisdom50+ years ago all over the world?

1 minute ago, soulpope said:

The Sonny Rollins Trio Graz concert in a "restored" version would still qualify as major "find" .... at least with me .... btw Jymie Merritt's finest hours on tape ....

Yeah, most definitely.

[david weiss]

19 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Just to float all possibilities, there is always the possibility of fluctating current affecting the machine speed, up to an including the possibility of the machine being battery-powered. If these are not the OG tapes but first-generation copies, who knows for sure? All kinds of weirdmicro-geeky possibilities here...including improperly stored tape gradually stretching over time. Never rewind before storing, we all know now, but not sure that was common wisdom50+ years ago all over the world?

 

Sure, anything is possible....

If a radio station recorded this, I would have more trust in how those folks handled tapes and tape machines then most people around now.... That was their world....

But yes, with the passage of time, anything is possible....

[king ubu]

Thanks a lot for taking the time to reply to all of our comments, rants etc. @david weiss - most interesting!  

Oh, btw. Sun Ra Arkestra, "Swirling" on Strut: three different versions in three formats, it seems (I've got CD and DL, 10 and 13 tracks, respectively, the LP has 11, including one of the three tracks omitted on the CD - making only the DL complete ... and oddly, the LP switches sequence of the tracks, within a side but also across sides).

Also, Firehouse12 has done similar releases (by Taylor Ho Bynum and Tyshawn Sorey: complementing partial LP and CD releases with, I think, no overlap, each coming with complete DLs).

[jcam_44]

6 hours ago, david weiss said:

I'll listen....

Independents wouldn't have to adhere to any mandate really unless their distributors needed to have things a certain way. Ropeadope (rightfully) thinks outside the box anyways. I did an album for them a few years back.

Your Christian Scott examples actually proves my point. They made their edits to make their album the way they wanted it and presumably made it a more streamlined (and to them a better) listening experience. That's the way we all make records whether you know about it or not. In the instant gratification era, it's always good to have more content to keep interest in the artist, hence the download only complete set. It probably had a different matrix or ID number as well. That would be a good idea for this project as well and I can ask though I usually don't have much say in these matters. I will tell you that one speed bump for this is that the artist did not want some of those tracks released either. 

Not really proving your point at all. The Christian Scott didn’t have any edits. It was just selection for that would fit on one cd/2 LP. It’s also unedited on Apple Music. So it wasn’t a matter of “streamlining”. It was making a product for the format it was in. 
 

i also don’t take issue with different formats having different tracks though I can see why you would. I bought the LP of the Dexter Gordon and decided I didn’t need the full set since I could go to Apple Music if I wanted to hear it.

 

anyway, do you know if the studio tracks never saw release due to the reverb? Full disclosure it may be addressed in the book but I only went through the first section. 

[david weiss]

10 hours ago, jcam_44 said:

Not really proving your point at all. The Christian Scott didn’t have any edits. It was just selection for that would fit on one cd/2 LP. It’s also unedited on Apple Music. So it wasn’t a matter of “streamlining”. It was making a product for the format it was in. 
 

i also don’t take issue with different formats having different tracks though I can see why you would. I bought the LP of the Dexter Gordon and decided I didn’t need the full set since I could go to Apple Music if I wanted to hear it.

 

anyway, do you know if the studio tracks never saw release due to the reverb? Full disclosure it may be addressed in the book but I only went through the first section. 

Not really my point but OK. I was saying the artist made the record he wanted to make, chose the tracks he wanted to use, omitted the ones he didn't and put it in the order he wanted to put it in. He also made the whole concert available to download for those who wanted it hear it that way as well but the point is, he made the record he wanted to make first and that was what was made commercially available. That was the album that was sent out for review and to radio stations etc etc. He made the best album he thought he could make from this material and that's the point. You might not agree about how people go about it or might not agree how a label goes about presenting archival material in what they think is the best way possible. It seems like you are even bitching about the big booklets somewhere along the way. The point with the release in question is that the artist was involved and signed off on the material so the label adhered to the artist's wishes. 

So, different strokes for different folks. I wouldn't buy an album or CD (especially a CD) if it didn't have all the tracks that are available on it. That's absurd to me or as egregious as anything else discussed here. I'm glad one could stream the other tracks so they are somewhere but if I want to listen to an album or CD, I want to listen to the whole thing.

I am not aware of the Vara session ever being considered for commercial release. If a record label was involved with recording this, then I would have to assume they wanted the reverb. It wasn't the norm back then to record something and then shop it to labels for release. I don't think sonny was signed to any label in 1967. His last recording was for Impulse in 1966 and he didn't record again until 1972. I haven't read the liner notes either. 

 

 

Edited December 21, 2020 by david weiss

[Dan Gould]

15 hours ago, david weiss said:

As for the speed, I'm just saying if both tunes were recorded back to back and are on the same tape reel (they were) then there would not be speed issues between the two tunes. That might be a tuning issue with the musicians. There is no piano so things can float a little here and there. You are not talking about a big leap here....

 

Cassette recordings can be really variable and in odd ways. I have used Jim's and Allen's help on a transfer of a recording of the Percy France quartet, giving me indications of what key they were playing in and what key was likely. Right in the middle of a section of tunes that needed a 1/2 step correction they played "A Train" in C, and this track needed no adjustment. How can that be, I thought. (And eventually I remembered I had another recording and verified that they do sound exactly the same.)

And there was no doubt that the batteries on this recording device were not new or mostly fresh, as the first tune was a blues in F# which Allen told me they'd never play in that key, so it was 1/2 step off right at jump ... and the final two tracks were full steps off, with Percy sounding like Mickey Mouse on his last stage announcement, and Castle Rock sounding like he was playing an alto.

[ghost of miles]

On 12/19/2020 at 1:15 PM, Fer Urbina said:

Re: what @king ubu and @david weiss were discussing about contents having to be equivalent regardless of format, FWIW, the latest Elemental release, Barney Wilen with Tete Montoliu is 11-tracks on double CD, 6 on single vinyl.

And the vinyl initially listed for several dollars more. (Often the vinyl editions of any of these releases are much more expensive--my favorite point of comparison is the Brad Mehldau box-set that came out a few years back, which listed for about $30 on CD and $129 on vinyl.) So glad the cheaper CD version with more material was available!  Like Jsngry I grew up with vinyl, nothing against it (well, except for what it's doing in terms of disrupting potential additional content for CD releases, as discussed in this thread) and still occasionally buy new or used LPs, but almost always only if there's no CD counterpart available.