Sonny Rollins "Rollins In Holland: 1967 Studio And Live Recordings"

[colinmce]

Pretty disappointing to hear about the editing and all the rest. And since we're bitching, it just seems like there were problems all around with this one. I had initially planned to order the CD from Amazon, but it was immediately out of stock, so I placed an order with a record store. A couple weeks went by without a shipping notice, and when I inquired, they said all their copies came with 2 of the same disc and they were waiting on replacements, something I hear happened with the LPs as well. I'll be happy to have it when I finally do get it, but this seems like a misstep all around. I'd call it a rush job, but they announced this almost annoyingly far in advance. 

[king ubu]

56 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Hey, I can do both. And will, lol!

Me too!

But doing the comparing last Sunday was really quite a bit of a disillusionary thing (and hey, I didn't post here immediately ... by then I'd stopped alternatively fuming/cursing and crying  )

[jlhoots]

37 minutes ago, colinmce said:

Pretty disappointing to hear about the editing and all the rest. And since we're bitching, it just seems like there were problems all around with this one. I had initially planned to order the CD from Amazon, but it was immediately out of stock, so I placed an order with a record store. A couple weeks went by without a shipping notice, and when I inquired, they said all their copies came with 2 of the same disc and they were waiting on replacements, something I hear happened with the LPs as well. I'll be happy to have it when I finally do get it, but this seems like a misstep all around. I'd call it a rush job, but they announced this almost annoyingly far in advance. 

My 2 CD set from Amazon has disc 1 & 2. At least that's a relief!!

[clifford_thornton]

39 minutes ago, colinmce said:

 I'd call it a rush job, but they announced this almost annoyingly far in advance. 

yeah. Very weird use of hype.

[Fer Urbina]

Wow, thanks for that @king ubu.

F

[david weiss]

On 12/14/2020 at 3:17 AM, king ubu said:

Loosdrecht runs slow (+38 cents to fix "Sonnymoon", +24 cents to fix "Love Walked In").

Here's my attempt to figure out the cuts on all of disc two - what a nuisance ... this is some of the greatest music ever to be heard, sound quality is only marginally better than the circulating version (in which, as some may remember, I had a hand in), actually makes me wonder what exactly was the source Resonance used, certainly not a pristine radio archive copy at all (I guess the NJA logo is there because of the studio tracks, LP side A/CD1#1-4).

 

:: Resonance Version ::

SIDE A (CD 1 #1-4) — Recorded at VARA Studio 5, Hilversum, The Netherlands on May 5, 1967
* Blue Room (4:49) — L. Hart, R. Rodgers / Warner Bros Inc. (Warner Bros Music Div.), Williamson Music Co. (ASCAP)
* Four (5:14) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)
* Love Walked In (6:04) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)
* Tune Up (6:57) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)

SIDE B (CD 1 #5-6) — Recorded live at the Go-Go club, Loosdrecht, The Netherlands on May 5, 1967
* Sonnymoon for Two (8:13) – S. Rollins / Son Rol Music Company (BMI)
* Love Walked In (9:31) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)

SIDE C-F (CD 1 #7, CD 2) — Recorded live at Academie voor Beeldende Kunst, Arnhem, The Netherlands on May 3, 1967
@ Three Little Words (22:25) – B. Kalmar, H. Ruby / BMG Firefly, Edwin H. Morris & Company, Inc., Ruby Harry Music Co. (ASCAP)

# They Can’t Take That Away From Me/Sonnymoon for Two (9:33) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP) & S. Rollins / Son Rol Music Company (BMI)
# On Green Dolphin Street/There Will Never Be Another You (15:00) – B. Kaper, N. Washington / Catharine Hinen, Pattie Washington Music, Primary Waves Songs (ASCAP) & M. Gordon, H. Warren / Four Jays Music Co., Mattsam Music, Morley Music Co. (ASCAP)

# Love Walked In (19:45) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)

# Four (22:19) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)

—
*) Resonance exclusive
@) complete on Resonance set, as well as in bootleg version
#) edited on Resonance set, complete/longer on bootleg version

—

 

:: Bootleg Version ::

 

Arnhem (NL), prob. Musis Sacrum (location wrong, aula of the Academy is correct, see post by @Caravan below!) – May 3, 1967

Sonny Rollins – tenor sax
Ruud Jacob – bass
Han Bennink – drums, congas

CD1/63:27
# 1. Love Walked In (George & Ira Gershwin) 22:35
# 2. Four (Miles Davis) 27:14
* 3. Old Devil Moon (Lane-Harburg) 13:38 [incomplete, cut]

CD2/75:24
# 1. They Can’t Take That Away From Me (George & Ira Gerswhin)
> Sonnymoon For Two (Sonny Rollins) 13:59
# 2. On Green Dolphin Street (Kaper-Washington)
> There Will Never Be Another You (Warren-Gordon) 19:50
@ 3. Three Little Words (Kalmar-Ruby) (22:39)
* 4. ‚Round Midnight (Thelonious Monk) (8:22) [incomplete, cuts in]
* 5. St. Thomas (trad.-Rollins) 10:34 [incomplete, fades out]

TT: 138:51

*) not on Resonance set
@) on Resonance set (both versions complete/identical)
#) edited on Resonance set

 

—

:: The Edits on Resonance ::

 

THREE LITTLE WORDS
no edits

THEY CAN’T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME > SONNYMOON FOR TWO (9:36 vs. 13:58)
two cuts, first one somewhere between 6:14 and 6:24 (missing ~6:20/:25 to 8:56 of the complete version, Rollins‘ re-entry @6:25 is @8:35 in the full version), second one later, couldn't really pin it down, but the drum solo is missing (~10:45-12:56 of the complete version).

ON GREEN DOLPHIN STREET > THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER YOU (15:01 vs. 19:50)
@ ~6:08 there's a (barely) audible edit (pay attention to the bass drum sound chaning right after Rollins stops playing); missing roughly 6:15-10:50 (bass solo, rhythm duo, drum solo); the fade at the end is identical on both versions (which has me wonder about sources used by R ...)

LOVE WALKED IN (19:45 vs. 22:35)
~6:55: bass solo cut (~2:23 min; also cut some applause at end, ~0:25)

FOUR (22:21 vs. 27:14)
two cuts again, first is the bass solo, second portions of drums/fours; beginning to ca. 7:00 is the same on both versions, then the first cut takes place; Rollins‘ re-entry  @7:49 (Resonance) is @9:21 (Bootleg); then during the fours, there's another cut; from ~10:50 (Resonance) or ~15:35 (Bootleg) to the end, both versions are identical again (R cuts around 20 sec of applause at the end)

 

--

 

I'm kinda unwilling to look at this as gentlemen's behaviour. First, the rhythm sections is really firing it up and creating a great environment for Rollins to play in. Second, this environment is part of what keeps Rollins going - this is free-flow, free-association playing, and taking breaks, listening to the others, is part of the process. You don't just switch gears after four minutes and add another five, that's not how it works. And this is a live recording of great value and importance, and it really should not be treated that way - at least not in my book (doesn't compare to Columbia breaking up the Monk Quartet routine for studio recordings a bit, as those were artifical products made for a record, this is live, it's in real time, and adding cuts is really dubiuos, as a historian I'm inclined to call it revisionism).

These cuts, I guess, were mostly justdone to fit it all onto LPs. The four full tracks could not have been squeezed onto a disc, BUT the full CD2#1 would have fit onto CD1 if I got my math right!

So what it all boils down to: the uber-hip vinyl crowd is catered to, the recording twitched and defigured to better match their format ... and the same defiguration is used for CD/DL/whatever versions, which is TOTALLY BOGUS B-S UNNECESSARY.

 

Ok, done. And pissed.

Question... What makes you think Arnhem was a radio broadcast?

Also, it seems like 2 tunes on the same tape would be at different speeds so it seems +38 cents to fix "Sonnymoon", +24 cents to fix "Love Walked In is all about the tape speed it accurate. Also, 38 cents flat is not even a quarter tone flat so still closer to Bb then A though clearly out of tune. 

[JSngry]

Listening to the OG bootleg today...the edits are probably less egregious if you don't know about them (or in my case, halfway forgotten abot them), but to hear this music organically (as possible) is jsut...different. The trio dynamic is truly organic, at times foreshadowing Air, sortakinda...not exactly, but...you can hear things moving towards that gravitational pull. It was happening.

Not that anybody at Resonace would care about that for their product, but still, there it is anyway.

[david weiss]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

Listening to the OG bootleg today...the edits are probably less egregious if you don't know about them (or in my case, halfway forgotten abot them), but to hear this music organically (as possible) is jsut...different. The trio dynamic is truly organic, at times foreshadowing Air, sortakinda...not exactly, but...you can hear things moving towards that gravitational pull. It was happening.

Not that anybody at Resonace would care about that for their product, but still, there it is anyway.

But that's just it, isn't it? Edits and such are made all the time and the only reason one would know about it with live material like this is of a previous bootleg version exists. 

If one listened to this fresh without the knowledge of edits, would it be a great listening experience? Dare I suggest even better perhaps?

What if the artist approved the edits or approved the edited tracks?

Clearly there is a bigger picture involved here and I really can't make a judgement about it. 

Would I prefer unedited music myself? Probably

Am I the person these labels are producing music for? Probably not

If you made a big expensive box set and needed to recoup your expenses, would you go out on a limb (rightly or wrongly) to try to make it a tighter, more concise and perhaps a more enjoyable listening experience for the average listener? The edits are pretty seamless I think....

Here are some things I do know for sure after working on a few of these things.

1. Vinyl is king again. Vinyl sells more then CDs now. Any decisions about length and such are dictated by vinyl now, 

2. The music has to be the same on all formats so no edits on one format and unedited on the other formats. 

 

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, david weiss said:

Also, 38 cents flat is not even a quarter tone flat so still closer to Bb then A though clearly out of tune. 

I'm reminded of one of the most cruelly humorously sadistic musical experiences of my life, an afternoon corporate cocktail party whre I showed up ready to drink it out of the way and got there early so I could. And did. Long story short, the entire first set was spent listening to a guitarist and bassist easily a quarter tone aprt from each other, and both of them defiantly fending off the dirty looks of the other by waving their electronic tuners at each other to show that look motherfucker, I'M in tune, I ain't moving. The bandleader was too unwilling to stop the set, so the break waw a free for all of datadicking. I was definitely not drunk enough (but not for lack of trying, so I jsut said, "don't you cats use your ears?" And then headed for the bar, because, drunk enough was not yet happening.

Point just being, my 90s era cheap Casio, whatever it's tuned to, has this one sounding just a teence sharp to A, and a buttload flat to Bb, which is in line with what it feels like to me, away from my horn. Of course, "correct intonation" has never been a particularly avid pursuit for me, so there's always that. Still...that's what my ears tell me, not jsut my cheap Casio.

For that matter, my Tonette tells me that too, and that was my VERY first instrument.

[JSngry]

Just now, david weiss said:

But that's just it, isn't it? Edits and such are made all the time and the only reason one would know about it with live material like this is of a previous bootleg version exists. 

If one listened to this fresh without the knowledge of edits, would it be a great listening experience? Dare I suggest even better perhaps?

What if the artist approved the edits or approved the edited tracks?

Clearly there is a bigger picture involved here and I really can't make a judgement about it. 

Would I prefer unedited music myself? Probably

Am I the person these labels are producing music for? Probably not

If you made a big expensive box set and needed to recoup your expenses, would you go out on a limb (rightly or wrongly) to try to make it a tighter, more concise and perhaps a more enjoyable listening experience for the average listener? The edits are pretty seamless I think....

Here are some things I do know for sure after working on a few of these things.

1. Vinyl is king again. Vinyl sells more then CDs now. Any decisions about length and such are dictated by vinyl now, 

2. The music has to be the same on all formats so no edits on one format and unedited on the other formats. 

 

Yeah, that's the realities of business. I get that.

The realities of music are that one should never reject a bootleg, because you never know what's going to happen to it on the way to market. Sometimes value is added for the customer, sometimes value is added for the seller. You never know until you get there, so take it when you get it and then figure out which is which later.

One personal reality - I am not going back to vinyl for a new release. Never. Been there, done that, had a blast, but...everything old might be new again, but then that means that I'm getting newer by the day, and I SO do not believe that bullshit!

[david weiss]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Yeah, that's the realities of business. I get that.

The realities of music are that one should never reject a bootleg, because you never know what's going to happen to it on the way to market. Sometimes value is added for the customer, sometimes value is added for the seller. You never know until you get there, so take it when you get it and then figure out which is which later.

One personal reality - I am not going back to vinyl for a new release. Never. Been there, done that, had a blast, but...everything old might be new again, but then that means that I'm getting newer by the day, and I SO do not believe that bullshit!

You know, honestly I'm a vinyl guy but I have little interest in getting these titles on vinyl myself. 

The sources are usually digital at this point anyways.

I will say there is one ridiculous vinyl box set on the horizon that I think will be worth it on LP.

There is going to be a 12 LP box set The Complete Lee Morgan Live at the Lighthouse coming out next year. 

These were mixed from the original 4 track tapes and the whole process was analogue and I think they sound great.

There are no edits by the way....

[CJ Shearn]

11 minutes ago, david weiss said:

You know, honestly I'm a vinyl guy but I have little interest in getting these titles on vinyl myself. 

The sources are usually digital at this point anyways.

I will say there is one ridiculous vinyl box set on the horizon that I think will be worth it on LP.

There is going to be a 12 LP box set The Complete Lee Morgan Live at the Lighthouse coming out next year. 

These were mixed from the original 4 track tapes and the whole process was analogue and I think they sound great.

There are no edits by the way....

Will this see a digital release??

 

[david weiss]

32 minutes ago, CJ Shearn said:

Will this see a digital release??

 

8 CD box set I believe....

[CJ Shearn]

2 minutes ago, david weiss said:

8 CD box set I believe....

Mosaic or some super limited Blue Note box? I would say Mosaic is pretty limited considering I barely got the second Mobley box.

[jcam_44]

1 hour ago, david weiss said:

2. The music has to be the same on all formats so no edits on one format and unedited on the other formats. 

 

I get you were involved in this release and appreciate your opinion but why did they not correct issues with the sound, left/right channel shifting specifically track 2. It was jarring. And easily corrected by taking the audible channel over to the other side. I’m presuming they weren’t cutting tape to make the edits. I would agree a person hearing this for the first time might not hear the edits but I doubt casual listeners are buying this. Maybe they do still buy physical media but I was under the impression based on the “death of the cd” it’s really just the hardcore fan. And no causal fan is paying $80 for a record I hope. 
 

 Why does the music have to be the same on all formats? It’s it a Resonance Rule?

Edited December 19, 2020 by jcam_44

[JSngry]

Back to Rollins...the Arnhem music is spooky...every tune sounds like it could be any of the other ones, and at any given moment is...this is some kind of metaphysical plane-shifting or something...since it's the one unedited cut on the Resonance set, "Three Little Words" just...where the fuck is that after it gets going? Sure here, but also here. And here. And...it reminds me of the quantum photography thing where they showed that one thing can be in two places at the same time. So we know that it is possible, and here the music is doing that.

Even crazier still is the full bootleg CD #1 where even after the tag of "Four" becomes "Old Devil Moon", the feeling that it's still the tag of "Four" never goes away, even though it never overtly is. How do they do that? Threads of continuity get planted in the subconscious? How do you keep open enough to let that happen? Even with high-level improvisation, this doesn't happen, not this, this is the kind of thing that gets attributed to Celibidache, but this is not some conductor bending an orchestra/time to his will, this is "just" a pickup band playing tunes. And yet it happens. Sure as I'm sitting here(?), it happens here/there.

Consumer, buy this set. It's a marvelous object and marvelous music, geek-quibblings aside. But also, know that there is more to the story than is told here. Proceed accordingly if you know that such things matter to you.

25 minutes ago, jcam_44 said:

And no causal fan is paying $80 for a record I hope.

I would think that ONLY a casual fan would pay $80 for a record (at least one that's not an auction/rarity).

[medjuck]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

  this is not some conductor bending an orchestra/time to his will, this is "just" a pickup band playing tunes. And yet it happens. Sure as I'm sitting here(?), it happens here/there.

Who apparently had never played together or rehearsed beforehand! 

[david weiss]

3 hours ago, CJ Shearn said:

Mosaic or some super limited Blue Note box? I would say Mosaic is pretty limited considering I barely got the second Mobley box.

It will be on Blue Note I believe. I don't think it will be a super limited set. The LP set might be limited but certainly not the CDs.

[david weiss]

2 hours ago, jcam_44 said:

I get you were involved in this release and appreciate your opinion but why did they not correct issues with the sound, left/right channel shifting specifically track 2. It was jarring. And easily corrected by taking the audible channel over to the other side. I’m presuming they weren’t cutting tape to make the edits. I would agree a person hearing this for the first time might not hear the edits but I doubt casual listeners are buying this. Maybe they do still buy physical media but I was under the impression based on the “death of the cd” it’s really just the hardcore fan. And no causal fan is paying $80 for a record I hope. 
 

 Why does the music have to be the same on all formats? It’s it a Resonance Rule?

"left/right channel shifting specifically track 2" Track 2 of CD 1 Four or something else?

We were not cutting tape, all edits were done digitally. 

My work on these projects is usually pretty specific. I usually vet the material and if they want edits, will explore the possibilities for them. I'm in New York and Resonance is in LA so I am not in the studio for all the production work. 

Why wouldn't a casual listener buy a live Sonny Rollins set? I assume they would buy the more affordable CD set or eventually download it or something instead of buying the LPs. 

A certain age group still buys CDs because hey, they have a CD player. 

I think the LP box is for a specific market. 

I think it is an industry wide mandate that all formats have to have the same exact material. It first came up for me when working on something for Blue Note. I don't know this for sure but everyone seems to be following this mandate. 

[david weiss]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Back to Rollins...the Arnhem music is spooky...every tune sounds like it could be any of the other ones, and at any given moment is...this is some kind of metaphysical plane-shifting or something...since it's the one unedited cut on the Resonance set, "Three Little Words" just...where the fuck is that after it gets going? Sure here, but also here. And here. And...it reminds me of the quantum photography thing where they showed that one thing can be in two places at the same time. So we know that it is possible, and here the music is doing that.

Even crazier still is the full bootleg CD #1 where even after the tag of "Four" becomes "Old Devil Moon", the feeling that it's still the tag of "Four" never goes away, even though it never overtly is. How do they do that? Threads of continuity get planted in the subconscious? How do you keep open enough to let that happen? Even with high-level improvisation, this doesn't happen, not this, this is the kind of thing that gets attributed to Celibidache, but this is not some conductor bending an orchestra/time to his will, this is "just" a pickup band playing tunes. And yet it happens. Sure as I'm sitting here(?), it happens here/there.

Consumer, buy this set. It's a marvelous object and marvelous music, geek-quibblings aside. But also, know that there is more to the story than is told here. Proceed accordingly if you know that such things matter to you.

I would think that ONLY a casual fan would pay $80 for a record (at least one that's not an auction/rarity).

After listening to a lot of Sonny from this period, I called George Cables and asked, how did you follow this, how did you know when to come in and join him because it seemed like every tune started with a solo cadenza where he play at least 5 different tunes before settling on something. He said it was a challenge and also said Sonny would play tunes in different keys a lot as well. I listened to a Left Bank concert with Albert Daily and Louis Hayes (from 1969 I believe) and Albert would jump in here and there and Sonny would go elsewhere until they finally settled in on something. You can hear Sonny saying things here and there as well but most of it is inaudible though I thought I heard a let's go at some point. It was incredible of course but there were certainly moments of uncertainty. Albert was way on top of it and it still wouldn't be quite enough. You can here a lot of that here as well and from the start. On Love Walked In from the Arnhem show, he breaks into Four mid solo and based on other shows from this period, fully expected the band to follow him and they don't catch it at all. He plays Four next instead. They catch some of these things later on in the program though. 

[jcam_44]

1 hour ago, david weiss said:

"left/right channel shifting specifically track 2" Track 2 of CD 1 Four or something else?

think it is an industry wide mandate that all formats have to have the same exact material. It first came up for me when working on something for Blue Note. I don't know this for sure but everyone seems to be following this mandate. 

Yes. It starts around 2:30 if memory serves, The bass solo is sonically all over the place. Anyone can hear it. It’s obvious. 
 

I don’t think it’s an industry thing. The recent Christian Scott live album from March-ish gave you the full set as a download and the cd and LP were truncated. But that’s on Ropeadope which is an independent, if big 3 or is it 2 now I don’t know, require something different it would stand to reason why they are out of touch. 

[king ubu]

9 hours ago, david weiss said:

Question... What makes you think Arnhem was a radio broadcast?

Also, it seems like 2 tunes on the same tape would be at different speeds so it seems +38 cents to fix "Sonnymoon", +24 cents to fix "Love Walked In is all about the tape speed it accurate. Also, 38 cents flat is not even a quarter tone flat so still closer to Bb then A though clearly out of tune. 

Uhm, nothing really - I was expressing the fact that when I heard about the upcoming release many moons ago (expectation management is something Resonance really does work hard on ... and apologies, but there as well I do not always think their choices are swell), I was *hoping* this might now be a radio archival version to replace the bootleg with.

As for the speed fixes, I'm only the messenger there, but feel free to behead me, no problem  

4 hours ago, david weiss said:

[...]

My work on these projects is usually pretty specific. I usually vet the material and if they want edits, will explore the possibilities for them. I'm in New York and Resonance is in LA so I am not in the studio for all the production work. 

Why wouldn't a casual listener buy a live Sonny Rollins set? I assume they would buy the more affordable CD set or eventually download it or something instead of buying the LPs. 

[...]

I think it is an industry wide mandate that all formats have to have the same exact material. It first came up for me when working on something for Blue Note. I don't know this for sure but everyone seems to be following this mandate. 

Interesting, many thanks!

This Rollins set, though, is not one that ought to be marketed for casual listeners - it doesn't have good enough sound for that (with the exception of the studio session kicking things off!), and it may be too challenging musically for many, as well ... but hey, from the business side it's sales (but there's an underlying business rationale there, too, isn't there? Will people continue buying Resonance product if they feel this is "bad" because the sound quality keeps them from enjoying it?)

The "industry wide mandate" is bogus b-s in my opinion - and it may be related to the industry being in deep sh*t: they're unwilling/unable to cope with different formats, see the ups and downs for each etc.

And since it seems you did suggest the edits (after all, considering circumstances, they had to be done and thus had to be done by someone!): chapeau! Pretending for a sec that I agree they're a necessity: they're well-done - that's for sure. And I'm serious now!  

[soulpope]

1 hour ago, king ubu said:

The "industry wide mandate" is bogus b-s in my opinion - and it may be related to the industry being in deep sh*t: they're unwilling/unable to cope with different formats, see the ups and downs for each etc.

Yep ....

[Mark13]

On 14-12-2020 at 11:38 AM, Caravan said:

There was another concert at jazzclub Persepolis in Utrecht, May 6. I was there too. Don't know if it was recorded.

The organizer of the Persepolis-concert, Jaap van de Klomp, was interviewed by journalist Gijsbert Kamer of De Volkskrant recently and made no mention of any (radio-) recording taking place at his club. And he expressed no regrets either, referring to the Utrecht-concert as a disastrous event, with pianist Misha Mengelberg, who sat in -, spoiling the proceedings: 'Nobody was happy about that,'

The 'unknown source' of the Arnhem-tapes apparently was at the right concert.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Mark13

[Dub Modal]

How does one come by the bootleg version?