Sonny Rollins "Rollins In Holland: 1967 Studio And Live Recordings"

[ghost of miles]

On 12/14/2020 at 3:17 AM, king ubu said:

 

I'm kinda unwilling to look at this as gentlemen's behaviour. First, the rhythm sections is really firing it up and creating a great environment for Rollins to play in. Second, this environment is part of what keeps Rollins going - this is free-flow, free-association playing, and taking breaks, listening to the others, is part of the process. You don't just switch gears after four minutes and add another five, that's not how it works. And this is a live recording of great value and importance, and it really should not be treated that way - at least not in my book (doesn't compare to Columbia breaking up the Monk Quartet routine for studio recordings a bit, as those were artifical products made for a record, this is live, it's in real time, and adding cuts is really dubiuos, as a historian I'm inclined to call it revisionism).

These cuts, I guess, were mostly justdone to fit it all onto LPs. The four full tracks could not have been squeezed onto a disc, BUT the full CD2#1 would have fit onto CD1 if I got my math right!

So what it all boils down to: the uber-hip vinyl crowd is catered to, the recording twitched and defigured to better match their format ... and the same defiguration is used for CD/DL/whatever versions, which is TOTALLY BOGUS B-S UNNECESSARY.

 

Ok, done. And pissed.

Haven't heard the Rollins yet (picking up a copy either today or tomorrow) but catering to the uber-hip vinyl crowd is a growing irritation of mine as well, when it affects CD sequencing, amount of material that's used, etc.  (Not to mention the often-exorbitant pricing.)  

[JSngry]

Let me put it this way - I try to gift my bootlegs once I get the material legit. Not doing that this time.Gonna have to keep them both.

[king ubu]

Well drop notes for grifting whatever ... whomever ... whenever.

[Mark Stryker]

On 12/14/2020 at 3:17 AM, king ubu said:

Loosdrecht runs slow (+38 cents to fix "Sonnymoon", +24 cents to fix "Love Walked In").

Here's my attempt to figure out the cuts on all of disc two - what a nuisance ... this is some of the greatest music ever to be heard, sound quality is only marginally better than the circulating version (in which, as some may remember, I had a hand in), actually makes me wonder what exactly was the source Resonance used, certainly not a pristine radio archive copy at all (I guess the NJA logo is there because of the studio tracks, LP side A/CD1#1-4).

 

:: Resonance Version ::

SIDE A (CD 1 #1-4) — Recorded at VARA Studio 5, Hilversum, The Netherlands on May 5, 1967
* Blue Room (4:49) — L. Hart, R. Rodgers / Warner Bros Inc. (Warner Bros Music Div.), Williamson Music Co. (ASCAP)
* Four (5:14) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)
* Love Walked In (6:04) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)
* Tune Up (6:57) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)

SIDE B (CD 1 #5-6) — Recorded live at the Go-Go club, Loosdrecht, The Netherlands on May 5, 1967
* Sonnymoon for Two (8:13) – S. Rollins / Son Rol Music Company (BMI)
* Love Walked In (9:31) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)

SIDE C-F (CD 1 #7, CD 2) — Recorded live at Academie voor Beeldende Kunst, Arnhem, The Netherlands on May 3, 1967
@ Three Little Words (22:25) – B. Kalmar, H. Ruby / BMG Firefly, Edwin H. Morris & Company, Inc., Ruby Harry Music Co. (ASCAP)

# They Can’t Take That Away From Me/Sonnymoon for Two (9:33) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP) & S. Rollins / Son Rol Music Company (BMI)
# On Green Dolphin Street/There Will Never Be Another You (15:00) – B. Kaper, N. Washington / Catharine Hinen, Pattie Washington Music, Primary Waves Songs (ASCAP) & M. Gordon, H. Warren / Four Jays Music Co., Mattsam Music, Morley Music Co. (ASCAP)

# Love Walked In (19:45) – G. Gershwin, I. Gershwin / Frankie G. Songs, Nokawi Music (ASCAP)

# Four (22:19) – M. Davis / Prestige Music Co. (BMI)

—
*) Resonance exclusive
@) complete on Resonance set, as well as in bootleg version
#) edited on Resonance set, complete/longer on bootleg version

—

 

:: Bootleg Version ::

 

Arnhem (NL), prob. Musis Sacrum (location wrong, aula of the Academy is correct, see post by @Caravan below!) – May 3, 1967

Sonny Rollins – tenor sax
Ruud Jacob – bass
Han Bennink – drums, congas

CD1/63:27
# 1. Love Walked In (George & Ira Gershwin) 22:35
# 2. Four (Miles Davis) 27:14
* 3. Old Devil Moon (Lane-Harburg) 13:38 [incomplete, cut]

CD2/75:24
# 1. They Can’t Take That Away From Me (George & Ira Gerswhin)
> Sonnymoon For Two (Sonny Rollins) 13:59
# 2. On Green Dolphin Street (Kaper-Washington)
> There Will Never Be Another You (Warren-Gordon) 19:50
@ 3. Three Little Words (Kalmar-Ruby) (22:39)
* 4. ‚Round Midnight (Thelonious Monk) (8:22) [incomplete, cuts in]
* 5. St. Thomas (trad.-Rollins) 10:34 [incomplete, fades out]

TT: 138:51

*) not on Resonance set
@) on Resonance set (both versions complete/identical)
#) edited on Resonance set

 

—

:: The Edits on Resonance ::

 

THREE LITTLE WORDS
no edits

THEY CAN’T TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME > SONNYMOON FOR TWO (9:36 vs. 13:58)
two cuts, first one somewhere between 6:14 and 6:24 (missing ~6:20/:25 to 8:56 of the complete version, Rollins‘ re-entry @6:25 is @8:35 in the full version), second one later, couldn't really pin it down, but the drum solo is missing (~10:45-12:56 of the complete version).

ON GREEN DOLPHIN STREET > THERE WILL NEVER BE ANOTHER YOU (15:01 vs. 19:50)
@ ~6:08 there's a (barely) audible edit (pay attention to the bass drum sound chaning right after Rollins stops playing); missing roughly 6:15-10:50 (bass solo, rhythm duo, drum solo); the fade at the end is identical on both versions (which has me wonder about sources used by R ...)

LOVE WALKED IN (19:45 vs. 22:35)
~6:55: bass solo cut (~2:23 min; also cut some applause at end, ~0:25)

FOUR (22:21 vs. 27:14)
two cuts again, first is the bass solo, second portions of drums/fours; beginning to ca. 7:00 is the same on both versions, then the first cut takes place; Rollins‘ re-entry  @7:49 (Resonance) is @9:21 (Bootleg); then during the fours, there's another cut; from ~10:50 (Resonance) or ~15:35 (Bootleg) to the end, both versions are identical again (R cuts around 20 sec of applause at the end)

 

--

 

I'm kinda unwilling to look at this as gentlemen's behaviour. First, the rhythm sections is really firing it up and creating a great environment for Rollins to play in. Second, this environment is part of what keeps Rollins going - this is free-flow, free-association playing, and taking breaks, listening to the others, is part of the process. You don't just switch gears after four minutes and add another five, that's not how it works. And this is a live recording of great value and importance, and it really should not be treated that way - at least not in my book (doesn't compare to Columbia breaking up the Monk Quartet routine for studio recordings a bit, as those were artifical products made for a record, this is live, it's in real time, and adding cuts is really dubiuos, as a historian I'm inclined to call it revisionism).

These cuts, I guess, were mostly justdone to fit it all onto LPs. The four full tracks could not have been squeezed onto a disc, BUT the full CD2#1 would have fit onto CD1 if I got my math right!

So what it all boils down to: the uber-hip vinyl crowd is catered to, the recording twitched and defigured to better match their format ... and the same defiguration is used for CD/DL/whatever versions, which is TOTALLY BOGUS B-S UNNECESSARY.

 

Ok, done. And pissed.

Now THIS is the Organissimo-only content that I've come to expect! Sorry you're pissed, but please stay mad if it leads to posts like this when needed. Having never been in possession of the bootleg (hangs head in shame), this is an extremely helpful roadmap.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Mark Stryker

[OliverM]

I've had the CD for a week or so, unfortunately CD player is just out of order right now and will have to find another way to listen to it. The above discussion is surprising considering all the talk that accompanies every Resonance release. King Ubu should have been editorial director for this release. Is this bootleg to be found anywhere?

[clifford_thornton]

3 hours ago, Steve Reynolds said:

Really in 1967 who else could have it possibly been??

Was J.R. Monterose over there yet in '67? He was working with Bennink, Jacobs, and René Thomas by '69 (heard on J.R. Monterose is Alive in Amsterdam, HSM 1502). His duo with Bennink on "Sonnymoon for Two" is incredible, one of the best sax-drums duos on record.

I'm glad for Flurin's annotations. I have the boot files but haven't listened to them in awhile -- was saving my anticipation for this set, which I had to get a replacement for anyway. So far I've relistened only to LP1 and didn't find much to complain about. Reverb isn't a big deal and I'm not really stressed by speed issues. The Arnhem sessions audio-wise didn't bother me on first pass last month, but agree that they lopped off a bit of rhythm section interplay. That's too bad, because as we know the Europeans weren't just along for the ride.

[danasgoodstuff]

Edits are pretty undeniable, once you have a complete version to compare;  but how do we know for sure they weren't just a little flat at one gig?

[JSngry]

More than "just a little" flat. Almost a half-step.

46 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Was J.R. Monterose over there yet in '67?

Playing like THIS?

[Mark Stryker]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

More than "just a little" flat. Almost a half-step.

Playing like THIS?

Exactly,

Nobody ever played like THAT except for Sonny, and not even Sonny did after 1964-68. That's the whole point.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Mark Stryker

[clifford_thornton]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

More than "just a little" flat. Almost a half-step.

Playing like THIS?

You should hear that Monterose/Bennink duo. Sonny is Sonny, but it's up there.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I think it's pretty funny that the purported "Jazz detective" missed all those edits for his CD release. I get making those cuts for the LP, but inexcusable for the CD.

[bertrand]

Maybe the assumption was that the LP buyers would be up in arms if they knew the CD had more material. So they pruned both.

I am not saying that is a valid reason, just that it is the reason.

I am so over this jazz detective crap. A true detective would have 'detected' the tape speed problems.

[king ubu]

14 hours ago, bresna said:

I think it's pretty funny that the purported "Jazz detective" missed all those edits for his CD release. I get making those cuts for the LP, but inexcusable for the CD.

Well no, he *applied* them (or had someone do it)!

I have a hunch that "our" bootleg source (yes, it is available ...) was the source, the quick fade at the end of "Dolphin Street/..." is exactly the same, and from the Loosdrecht material it's pretty obviously Resonance would not have gotten the speed right for the Arnhem portions. 

 

Here's the full list of work done to the Arnhem set (first part by yours truly, second part by a musician friend who's known over on dime for his great work fixing speed and other other stuff on a variety of ROIOs, which I still prefer to "bootleg" as none of us is making any money with this):

 

Edits:
- delete silence/noise before CD1#1
- moved mark CD1#1/2: +6sec
- copied right channel into left on CD1#2 (0:09-3:07) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- deleted 0.4sec dropout @ 23:09 in CD1#1 (skip remains audible)
- deleted tiny dropout @ 24:02 in CD1#1 (skip remains audible)
- moved mark CD1#2/3: -1.5sec, deleted 0.1sec dropout
- copied right channel into left on CD1#3 (5:20-6:09, 7:08-8:53, 11:22-11:25) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- separated CD1#4 from CD1#3
- spliced intro of CD2#1 (a bit too loud) from duplicated partial version of same tune that followed CD1#3 (after the 13:12 cut), deleted duplicated track (7:34, faded at end)
- copied right channel into left on CD2#1 (6:15-8:21) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- moved mark CD2#1/2: -1.6sec, delected 0.1sec dropout
- deleted tiny dropout CD2#2 12:17
- copied right channel into left on CD2#2 (17:43-18:14, 18:41-19:21) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- deleted last 19sec of CD2#2 (duplication of beginning of CD2#3)
- deleted first 5.4sec of CD2#3 (duplication of applause of CD2#2)
- copied right channel into left on CD2#3 (0:00-0:06) applied 3dB cut on left channel (copied part got much louder than the right channel originally was/is)
- moved mark CD2#3/4: +38sec, deleted 0.1sec dropout around old mark, deleted noisy applause and silence (18.6sec), added fade-out
- deleted last 7.5sec of CD2#4 (duplication)
- moved mark CD2#4/5: +9sec, deleted 0.1sec dropout around old mark
- deleted silence at end of CD2#5 (4sec)

Notes:
- CD1#2 came as "Four - Don't Stop the Carnival", but it's mainly "Four" with Sonny quoting various other tunes in a free-flowing improvisation
- CD1#3 was followed by an incomplete version of CD2#1, the intro was longer on CD1#3, I spliced that onto CD2#1 and deleted the rest
- CD2#3 came as just "Three Little Words" - I am not sure if there are two or just one other tunes following or what they are.

Pitch of all tracks was approx. 55 cents sharp.  CD2 t03 was approx. an additional 49 cents from approx. 21:33:07 til the end; (these times taken after initial correction.)
CD1 - Track 1 - Fixed glitch at 2:09:70-2:09:72; 3:47:73; 03:33:57; gap at 21:53:71-21:54:02 removed; deleted beginning to 00:00:32 - it was only noise.  Retracked at 21:53:22 (cut til end, paste to 2, fade 1)
CD1 - Track 2 - Fixed glitches at 3:27:06 in the left channel; 00:19:70
CD1 - Track 3 - Fixed glitch at 5:40:46.  Deleted 13:37:72 til the end - it was only noise.
CD2 - Track 1 - Fixed small click at 00:15:05.  Reduced volume from beginning til 00:15:05 by 4.5 dB. 
CD2 - Track 2 - Fixed 3 clicks at 13:14:31, 13:18:56, 13:55:49, 14:19:05; cut last 00:08:28 after fade til end to paste to next track 
CD2 - Track 3 - Fixed click at 00:05:44-47, pasted 00:08:28 to beginning.    
CD2 - Track 4 - Reduced glitch at 50:30:55-61  
All tracks have been phase corrected and amplified +3dB.  Some fades added to smooth transitions.
 

 

So yeah, plenty of painstaking work ... my hope when I saw the announcement from Resonance was obviously that they found a better source, possibly even a radio source and not the AUD (I guess) that has been in circulation ... but alas not.

 

--

 

And thanks @Mark Stryker - following your work, though I've not made my way all through the Detroit book just yet.

 

--

 

14 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

You should hear that Monterose/Bennink duo. Sonny is Sonny, but it's up there.

Would certainly love to hear that!!!

Edited December 17, 2020 by king ubu

[jcam_44]

5 minutes ago, king ubu said:

So yeah, plenty of painstaking work ... my hope when I saw the announcement from Resonance was obviously that they found a better source, possibly even a radio source and not the AUD (I guess) that has been in circulation ... but alas not.

This is my complaint with the release as well. I assumed it was a better source also. But more than that, they could have taken the effort to clean up the audio. It just came across as a very lazy release but they put so much hype behind it.

 

18 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

Haven't heard the Rollins yet (picking up a copy either today or tomorrow) but catering to the uber-hip vinyl crowd is a growing irritation of mine as well, when it affects CD sequencing, amount of material that's used, etc.  (Not to mention the often-exorbitant pricing.)  

This is unacceptable in my opinion. The cd release should have had the complete set. If they wanted to appease the vinyl-crowd give them a download card. My guess is they didn’t want to make two masters. I wonder if anyone has compared the vinyl to cd to see if they have different masterings. 

[soulpope]

11 minutes ago, jcam_44 said:

This is unacceptable in my opinion. The cd release should have had the complete set. If they wanted to appease the vinyl-crowd give them a download card. My guess is they didn’t want to make two masters. 

Yes .... so they should not pretend caring about the music ....

[Steve Reynolds]

17 minutes ago, soulpope said:

Yes .... so they should not pretend caring about the music ....

I’m not even upset any longer that I haven’t received my 3 CD set

I also assumed a painstakingly remastered/refined release with decent audio sources. Cuts due to having a Vinyl LP release and still charging $30 for the set??

I’ll never order from this company again

[king ubu]

It's a 2 CD set. They should've made it 3 CDs though and included all of it, unedited (what's there should have fit onto two discs, unedited - but they also omitted three incomplete tracks, which has been mentioned somewhere in this thread).

And I'm bi-fold there, Resonance has done lots of good stuff (Wes Montgomery, Jones/Lewis, Larry Young, Getz and Getz/Gilbert, the Bill Evans trio with DeJohnette etc.) so I'll keep being interested. I was a bit ... irritated by the Dolphy (but then that one's great, as the Douglas material has not been on any decent CD version so far) ... and now the Rollins definitely is a partial hack-job, alas

Oh, and the Nat King Cole box is great - for those few left that care for that wonderful musician!

[soulpope]

Jazz detective ? More like jazz defective .... with the Rollins material  Mr. F had an grandslam homerun in his hands and ended with strikeout looking ....

[jcam_44]

I'm not really upset with incomplete tracks being left out. It just seems they spent more effort on the book then the music. Its a bit annoying in the book how they say they unearthed these recordings, then say purists will notice the incomplete tracks that were on bootlegs. If a boot exists you didn't "unearth" it. They also don't mention the edits to the music. Resonance does a good job for the most part, love the Grant Green releases from a few years ago but this is a disappointment. I also feel like the "countless hours spent fine tuning the sound" were misused. 

They do indicate they took these straight from the reels which indicates the boots were taken from these reels or they used the boots as a source (maybe the bootleg sound was better if the tapes were degraded).

[JSngry]

19 minutes ago, jcam_44 said:

 If a boot exists you didn't "unearth" it.

Bingo.

 

[jlhoots]

Lots of kvetching. I'm happy to have it.

[bertrand]

I am happy to see that many of you are starting to pick up on some issues that have concerned me for a while. There is far too much effort spent on the packaging, that is one of my concerns.

The Grant Green could have included some tracks with Kenny Burrell, as anyone who watches the YouTube video from Maison de la Radio can tell (whoever posted that one is my hero). I am sure they left them off to avoid paying KB. Or maybe they did not fit on the vinyl, who knows.

[clifford_thornton]

41 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Bingo.

 

Yep. I haven't read the book other than a quick scan and that kind of dug at me too. 

[jazzbo]

38 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

Lots of kvetching. I'm happy to have it.

I'm enjoying it . . . slowly. There's so much there.

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, jlhoots said:

Lots of kvetching. I'm happy to have it.

Hey, I can do both. And will, lol!