Mike Weil's discographies - general remarks

[EKE BBB]

7 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

Is it considered valid in discography circles to include every known non-official aka private recording?  Because the vast majority of Percy France recordings are private, whether audience or soundboard. 

 

Yes! Otherwise I have been misled for so many years... 😉

[Niko]

An extreme example is this great Hod O'Brien discography

https://jazzdiscography.com/Artists/OBrien/hod-disc.php

which contains about 120 private tapes and some further unissued and unrecorded sessions among 180 sessions... most of the private tapes recorded by the discographer himself it seems ... fascinating reading but, of course, not the most essential part of the discography for many purposes... Still, I strongly appreciate it when these are included

Edited August 19, 2020 by Niko

[Dan Gould]

3 minutes ago, EKE BBB said:

Yes! Otherwise I have been misled for so many years... 😉

What about known gigs that were provably simulcast on radio but no known tape exists?

In addition to very partial info about tapes that I know exist, I have a list of known gigs that occurred in NYC at the West End when WKCR was simulcasting on Friday nights at 9 pm. I assume those should not be part of a proper discography.

I also have a chronological list of gigs, taken from Newspapers.com, NYT, NY Magazine, etc. I was thinking about putting the gigs up separately on the planned website. 

(And, interestingly, there is maybe 1 advertised gig for which a tape exists. All the other advertised gigs are separate from known tapes.)

[EKE BBB]

9 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

What about known gigs that were provably simulcast on radio but no known tape exists?

In addition to very partial info about tapes that I know exist, I have a list of known gigs that occurred in NYC at the West End when WKCR was simulcasting on Friday nights at 9 pm. I assume those should not be part of a proper discography.

I also have a chronological list of gigs, taken from Newspapers.com, NYT, NY Magazine, etc. I was thinking about putting the gigs up separately on the planned website. 

(And, interestingly, there is maybe 1 advertised gig for which a tape exists. All the other advertised gigs are separate from known tapes.)

In my discographies, I limit myself to broadcasts or telecasts where there is at least some probability that a tape may exist.
 

Otherwise, I reserve these entries for the Chronology (e.g. my Tete Montoliu Discography vs my TM Chronology. BTW, sometime in the future they will be an annex to the first serious Tete Montoliu biography, which is currently in the works).

[Niko]

ultimately that type of thing is completely up to your discretion as a researcher I would say...  I certainly wouldn't separately include all Fridays of, say, 1974-1977 saying he probably played at the West End, no players, no tunes known... But, e.g. having a single entry for ca 1974, providing the info you have (radio station, likely players, location, approximately from April 1974 to June 1977...) would be a very valuable addition to a discography imho

[Dan Gould]

31 minutes ago, Niko said:

ultimately that type of thing is completely up to your discretion as a researcher I would say...  I certainly wouldn't separately include all Fridays of, say, 1974-1977 saying he probably played at the West End, no players, no tunes known... But, e.g. having a single entry for ca 1974, providing the info you have (radio station, likely players, location, approximately from April 1974 to June 1977...) would be a very valuable addition to a discography imho

I have more than that ... here are the 1981 gigs I found thru the NYT and newspapers.com (the latter was mostly music listings for the NY Daily News). Some of these are probably NY Magazine too. I didn't save info on source for each listing found.

You can see a lot of dates that the only known performer is Percy France. I also have information that he was a part of Joe Albany's New Yorkers but I don't actually have any listing that specifically has Percy in the group (or for that matter that listed any group member). So I made the decision to notate all JANY gigs on the list.

And of these, January 23 1981 would be only gig that would have been simulcast on WKCR.

(And may I add, it amazes me that WKCR did weekly simulcasts from the West End for at least 10 years, not to mention use the West End for benefit shows that went ten hours long, and it doesn't seem like anyone alive has cassettes of these broadcasts. DIME is utterly lacking in "WKCR" listings and I've never seen one in private lists of traders.  And of course, Schaap is only digitizing the tenth broadcast of Bird's greatest passage of gas captured in a studio, with Phil explaining for 30 minutes after what it was that Bird ate that day.)

Anyway here is what I got, known Percy France gigs in 1981:

January 21-24 1981 – Joe Albany's New Yorkers (JANY) – The West End

March 1 1981 – Sammy Price Two Tenor Boogie – Plainfield NJ Library

w. Percy France & Eddie Chamblee

June 27 1981 – Big Joe Turner – Tramps – 125 East 15^th St

w Percy France, Sammy Price (piano) Bill Davis (bass) Ronnie Cole (drums)

June 29 1981 – Honky Tonk Part 3 (HTP3) – The West End

July 3-5 and 8-11 – Big Joe Turner – Tramps

w Percy France, Sammy Price (piano) Bill Davis (bass) Ronnie Cole (drums)

(this engagement is continuation of June 27 show and group is assumed to be the same)

August 17, 24, 31 1981 – HTP3 – The West End

September 23-25, September 27 1981 – JANY – The West End

September 28 1981 – HTP3 – The West End

October 14-17 1981 – Big Joe Turner– Tramps

w Percy France and Friends

October 26 1981 – HTP3 – The West End

December 7, 14, 21, 28, 31 1981 – HTP3 – The West End

Per NYT, December 31 performance included Bob Neloms (piano) Bill Davis (bass) and a drummer to be determined.

 

I just realized one drawback of the BRIAN system. I would be expected to repeat the address for each club appearance. In my own distillation  I put addresses once and don't repeat it again.

[steveja7]

3 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

I just realized one drawback of the BRIAN system. I would be expected to repeat the address for each club appearance. In my own distillation  I put addresses once and don't repeat it again.

Not sure what you are getting at here.  BRIAN does have a feature to allow autocomplete for previously entered venues and locations. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment.

[Niko]

ok, this looks like the type of info that is well-served in an old-fashioned list that might accompany a discography but might also stand alone... (like Michael Fitzgerald's Art Blakey Chronology or Ricky Lopez work on e.g. Sam Rivers)

[Dan Gould]

Just now, steveja7 said:

Not sure what you are getting at here.  BRIAN does have a feature to allow autocomplete for previously entered venues and locations. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your comment.

OK that is good to know.

[mikeweil]

On 19.8.2020 at 6:19 PM, Big Beat Steve said:

This would make it much easier to see at a quick glance which issue or reissue actually includes the entire session.

The issues that include the entire session are always listed at the bottom of a session entry. 

But: When there are edited versions, issued on singles or compilations, they will spoil that. Same when there is one or more tracks still unissued. That is why "conventional" discographers use text modules so they can say "all issued tracks on .....", but this is less accurate.  It saves space in printed discographies, but online you can go for every detail. Many simply omit singles to avoid that problem, or list them seprately. Or they do not differentiate between edited single versions and complete tracks on LPs (like in Ruppli's Prestige disco, that only makes a difference when there are different takes used for singles). 

Bottom line is: when you go for every detail, BRIAN is the only way. It only causes more editorial work when you want to make it more "readable".

On 19.8.2020 at 9:52 PM, steveja7 said:

BRIAN does have a feature to allow autocomplete for previously entered venues and locations. 

But you have to activate that feature in your personal preferences - at least that is what I had to do - or is it standard in the latest version?

On 19.8.2020 at 8:07 PM, Dan Gould said:

Is it considered valid in discography circles to include every known non-official aka private recording?  Because the vast majority of Percy France recordings are private, whether audience or soundboard. 

This is your decision. There is no standard procedure for this. S. Duncan Reid did not want me to include them in the abridged disco for the Tjader biography, but I decided to include them in the online version. (In the case of Tjader, there aren't that many). I, for one, would include them as they always are of interest for the serious fan.

On 19.8.2020 at 6:37 PM, bertrand said:

I will start with Tina Brooks. There is already one 'moral dilemma' - does the Ray Charles DVD count? It has not been issued as an audio CD, I wish it had. So if the session is on a DVD only, does it count? If yes, then this extends to many other live dates that only exist as a DVD, e.g. Art Blakey in Belgium 1958.

I include DVDs - why not? DVD and other formats are listed in the media format dropdown menu. I include them whenever I find them. It can be helpful to include videos in circulation among private collectors when there are errors in track identification or personnel.

There is a Tina Brooks leader entry, btw. (i.e. no sideman dates) here: https://jazzdiscography.com/Leaders/BrooksTina-ldr.php

Edited May 6, 2021 by mikeweil

[steveja7]

26 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

But you have to activate that feature in your personal preferences - at least that is what I had to do - or is it standard in the latest version?

You have it correct and that has not changed.  I try to make things optional for the user when possible. 

Unfortunately, I spend too little time on the documentation and this causes users to miss some good features.  Writing documentation is my least favorite thing to do. :-)  Please don't scold me - I realize the problem with this.

[mikeweil]

BTW - Steve has offered me to host my BRIAN based discographies on the jazzdiscography.com site - an offer that I cannot resist as I feel honored to be in that company and it has the advantage of good maintenance and better formatting. I will remove them here except for some special cases but link them - they will be publicly accessible. The discographies I have finished (except for regular necessary updates, of course) are:

Cal Tjader

Dave Brubeck 1942-1950

Don Patterson

Melvin Rhyne

Pony Poindexter

Carla White

Ahmad Jamal 1951-1955

The Latin Jazz Quintet

The Essence All Stars

Lloyd McNeill (leader)

Al McKibbon (leader)

 

The ones I am working on are:

Nick Esposito

George Shearing MGM & Capitol

Eddie Harris (VeeJay, Columbia, Atlantic)

Andy Bey

King Pleasure

Eddie Jefferson

Geoffrey Keezer

Moacir Santos

Mongo Santamaria

Tito Puente RCA sessions 1948-1960

 

I now have to do proofreading and writing intro pages for the ones that are ready for web publication. 

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by mikeweil

[HutchFan]

Congrats, Mike!   

I'll say it again:  Well done!!!

[JSngry]

On 8/19/2020 at 1:07 PM, Dan Gould said:

Is it considered valid in discography circles to include every known non-official aka private recording? 

I would think that it is.

[mikeweil]

The Melvin Rhyne Discography is now online: https://jazzdiscography.com/Artists/melvin-rhyne/index.php

[Dan Gould]

18 hours ago, mikeweil said:

The Melvin Rhyne Discography is now online: https://jazzdiscography.com/Artists/melvin-rhyne/index.php

Very nice.

I did notice that a handful of sessions don't have information at the bottom about the title of the release?

[mikeweil]

1 hour ago, Dan Gould said:

Very nice.

I did notice that a handful of sessions don't have information at the bottom about the title of the release?

The note at the bottom applies only when all tracks of the session are on one release. Whenever tracks from a session are scattered over several releases, they are listed under the respective track entries.

[Ken Dryden]

Adding composers to a discography adds to the challenge since so many releases have incorrect or incomplete credits.

[mikeweil]

21 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

Adding composers to a discography adds to the challenge since so many releases have incorrect or incomplete credits.

Indeed. But it helps the collector to identify tracks. Sometimes listening to the music is the only way to confirm a tune's identity. Just one example: Fantasy always listed "Squeeze Me", the Fats Waller tune. When asked for the tune, the musicians probably had answered "Just Squeeze Me" - which is an Ellington tune. They didn't get that "Just" was part of the title. 

[Ken Dryden]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

Indeed. But it helps the collector to identify tracks. Sometimes listening to the music is the only way to confirm a tune's identity. Just one example: Fantasy always listed "Squeeze Me", the Fats Waller tune. When asked for the tune, the musicians probably had answered "Just Squeeze Me" - which is an Ellington tune. They didn't get that "Just" was part of the title. 

That is a common error. Richard Rodgers and Willard Robison are often misspelled and Bill Evans is frequently credited with composing Miles’ “Nardis.”

[medjuck]

49 minutes ago, Ken Dryden said:

That is a common error. Richard Rodgers and Willard Robison are often misspelled and Bill Evans is frequently credited with composing Miles’ “Nardis.”

Who's usually listed as having written Blue in Green?  Also, does Irving Mills usually get credit for Saint James Infirmary?  And how did he do that? 

[Ken Dryden]

The first time Bill Evans recorded “Blue In Green” as a leader on Riverside, he insisted that he composed the song and Orrin Keepnews added a co-writer credit. As far as I know, Miles never took any legal action to challenge it.

Could it be that “St. James Infirmary” was of unknown origin and Irving Mills was just first to publish it, using the name Joe Primrose? I have no idea.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Ken Dryden

[medjuck]

4 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

The first time Bill Evans recorded “Blue In Green” as a leader on Riverside, he insisted that he composed the song and Orrin Keepnews added a co-writer credit. As far as I know, Miles never took any legal action to challenge it.

Could it be that “St. James Infirmary” was of unknown origin and Irving Mills was just first to publish it, using the name Joe Primrose? I have no idea.

I've now read a whole book on this topic. 

[mikeweil]

1 hour ago, medjuck said:

I've now read a whole book on this topic. 

That looks interesting. Added it to my amazon wishlist.

[medjuck]

When Amazon has it they want an insane amount of money.  You can get it from the author at :

 

http://www.stjamesinfirmary.ca/purchase.html