Blakey Just Coolin' review

[bertrand]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:02 PM, JSngry said:

Did Alfred Lion have a lot of these type tapes, and did they all go to the same different home??

It sure would be nice if there were a master list of what is in the different home(s). Maybe there are mono copies of some of the missing sessions. Didn't we decide that Sweet Honey Bee and Jody Grind were mastered from vinyl? There are also other lost tapes out there of unissued sessions IIRC. 

On 7/19/2020 at 8:50 PM, Dan Gould said:

My understanding at some point was that Bob Belden was the source for the sessions that escaped - including Ike Quebec, the KD date, and the extended Grant Green date, and that all of these were acquired when he had access to the vaults. I am curious about "different home now" - they made it back to BN or to some other person?

As far as mono goes my transfers are not - close, no major stereo separation, but different peaks. I've never seen a recording that was mono turn into something not quite mono in the digital realm (as in, mono source, extracted as stereo -> still going to be mono.  So David I am not sure of your info and would be interested in further detail.

As for tracking and potential alternates, I have a disc of the master takes listed in the discography and just burned in that order so I guess my version is truly chronological. I would need to listen to the full discs to find these potential alternates, I could swear that the few full takes not labelled as the master take featured more squeaky Hank reed than the masters.

Maybe my attitude about the recording is colored by exposure to the full session and one shouldn't see how the sausage gets made. But I still think the band wasn't gelling that well which is why there were so many takes, so many breakdowns and so few full takes.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 8:50 PM, Dan Gould said:

My understanding at some point was that Bob Belden was the source for the sessions that escaped - including Ike Quebec, the KD date, and the extended Grant Green date, and that all of these were acquired when he had access to the vaults. I am curious about "different home now" - they made it back to BN or to some other person?

As far as mono goes my transfers are not - close, no major stereo separation, but different peaks. I've never seen a recording that was mono turn into something not quite mono in the digital realm (as in, mono source, extracted as stereo -> still going to be mono.  So David I am not sure of your info and would be interested in further detail.

As for tracking and potential alternates, I have a disc of the master takes listed in the discography and just burned in that order so I guess my version is truly chronological. I would need to listen to the full discs to find these potential alternates, I could swear that the few full takes not labelled as the master take featured more squeaky Hank reed than the masters.

Maybe my attitude about the recording is colored by exposure to the full session and one shouldn't see how the sausage gets made. But I still think the band wasn't gelling that well which is why there were so many takes, so many breakdowns and so few full takes.

Which Grant Green date? And is the Ike Quebec the one with Butch Warren?

13 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Rudy's Hackensack studio ran separate mono and stereo machines at 15 ips. He also would run a 7.5 ips machine for reference purposes. When he moved to Englewood Cliffs he discontinued using the dedicated mono deck.

So he still had an extra machine at Englewood Cliffs? But only Coltrane took home copies? I always wondered if Larry Young took home a copy of Mother Ship but I guess not. Blue World was not in the Universal stash, nor at Ravi's, correct, the only copy was in Canada?

Edited July 20, 2020 by bertrand

[Dan Gould]

8 hours ago, bertrand said:

 

 

Which Grant Green date? And is the Ike Quebec the one with Butch Warren?

 

Yes to the latter, and I have two discs of the "complete" Gooden's Corner.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

On 7/19/2020 at 8:50 PM, Dan Gould said:

My understanding at some point was that Bob Belden was the source for the sessions that escaped - including Ike Quebec, the KD date, and the extended Grant Green date, and that all of these were acquired when he had access to the vaults. I am curious about "different home now" - they made it back to BN or to some other person?

Bob Belden was not the source for the Ike Quebec date. I don't want to get anyone in trouble as I know the person who got that cassette copy of the best takes from that date, but it definitely was not Bob.

The guy I got the copies of the "Gooden's Corner" & "Matador" session reels from did not imply a connection to Belden on those. He did mention Belden for the Tyrone Washington "trainwreck" (which I never got) as well as the unissued Wayne Shorter date. Belden was definitely his source for nearly all of his Miles session tape copies. He had session tapes for several of Miles' Columbia recording sessions.

BTW - I no longer even have those Grant Green session tapes. I found them incredibly boring. I guess if I were a musician, particularly a guitarist, like the guy I got these tapes from, I would have appreciated them more. But hearing 6 or 8 takes of "My Favorite Things" really doesn't interest me.

[bertrand]

1 hour ago, bresna said:

Bob Belden was not the source for the Ike Quebec date. I don't want to get anyone in trouble as I know the person who got that cassette copy of the best takes from that date, but it definitely was not Bob.

The guy I got the copies of the "Gooden's Corner" & "Matador" session reels from did not imply a connection to Belden on those. He did mention Belden for the Tyrone Washington "trainwreck" (which I never got) as well as the unissued Wayne Shorter date. Belden was definitely his source for nearly all of his Miles session tape copies. He had session tapes for several of Miles' Columbia recording sessions.

BTW - I no longer even have those Grant Green session tapes. I found them incredibly boring. I guess if I were a musician, particularly a guitarist, like the guy I got these tapes from, I would have appreciated them more. But hearing 6 or 8 takes of "My Favorite Things" really doesn't interest me.

Those of us in DC researching Butch Warren, as well as his family, would love to hear the Quebec session.

Where did that out-take from Solid that popped up on YouTube come from? It was of some historical interest since it is an otherwise unknown Duke Pearson tune. I had a lead sheet made for the sake of posterity.

 

[Dan Gould]

1 hour ago, bresna said:

Bob Belden was not the source for the Ike Quebec date. I don't want to get anyone in trouble as I know the person who got that cassette copy of the best takes from that date, but it definitely was not Bob.

BTW - I no longer even have those Grant Green session tapes. I found them incredibly boring. I guess if I were a musician, particularly a guitarist, like the guy I got these tapes from, I would have appreciated them more. But hearing 6 or 8 takes of "My Favorite Things" really doesn't interest me.

Well I just shouldn't have posted at all I guess - all my info which was really just suspicion and was completely unfounded.

As for the Green, I still have it but agree with you on the musical pleasure to be derived from all of those takes.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Dan Gould

[Kevin Bresnahan]

9 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Those of us in DC researching Butch Warren, as well as his family, would love to hear the Quebec session.

Where did that out-take from Solid that popped up on YouTube come from? It was of some historical interest since it is an otherwise unknown Duke Pearson tune. I had a lead sheet made for the sake of posterity.

By the username of the person who posted those master tape recordings on YouTube a few years ago (now all gone??), I am almost positive it's the person who I got my copies from. He moved away years ago and I lost contact with him so I wouldn't be able to contact him today.

I just found that all of those YouTube videos from the Blue Note vaults have all been pulled and the poster's account has been closed due to copyright violation: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJcWXaSyAKQKT5k9IoB_nhQ/search?query=grant+green

[bertrand]

2 hours ago, bresna said:

By the username of the person who posted those master tape recordings on YouTube a few years ago (now all gone??), I am almost positive it's the person who I got my copies from. He moved away years ago and I lost contact with him so I wouldn't be able to contact him today.

I just found that all of those YouTube videos from the Blue Note vaults have all been pulled and the poster's account has been closed due to copyright violation: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJcWXaSyAKQKT5k9IoB_nhQ/search?query=grant+green

I knew that was going to happen.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 8:50 PM, Dan Gould said:

My understanding at some point was that Bob Belden was the source for the sessions that escaped - including Ike Quebec, the KD date, and the extended Grant Green date, and that all of these were acquired when he had access to the vaults. I am curious about "different home now" - they made it back to BN or to some other person?

As far as mono goes my transfers are not - close, no major stereo separation, but different peaks. I've never seen a recording that was mono turn into something not quite mono in the digital realm (as in, mono source, extracted as stereo -> still going to be mono.  So David I am not sure of your info and would be interested in further detail.

As for tracking and potential alternates, I have a disc of the master takes listed in the discography and just burned in that order so I guess my version is truly chronological. I would need to listen to the full discs to find these potential alternates, I could swear that the few full takes not labelled as the master take featured more squeaky Hank reed than the masters.

Maybe my attitude about the recording is colored by exposure to the full session and one shouldn't see how the sausage gets made. But I still think the band wasn't gelling that well which is why there were so many takes, so many breakdowns and so few full takes.

 

On 7/19/2020 at 8:50 PM, Dan Gould said:

My understanding at some point was that Bob Belden was the source for the sessions that escaped - including Ike Quebec, the KD date, and the extended Grant Green date, and that all of these were acquired when he had access to the vaults. I am curious about "different home now" - they made it back to BN or to some other person?

As far as mono goes my transfers are not - close, no major stereo separation, but different peaks. I've never seen a recording that was mono turn into something not quite mono in the digital realm (as in, mono source, extracted as stereo -> still going to be mono.  So David I am not sure of your info and would be interested in further detail.

As for tracking and potential alternates, I have a disc of the master takes listed in the discography and just burned in that order so I guess my version is truly chronological. I would need to listen to the full discs to find these potential alternates, I could swear that the few full takes not labelled as the master take featured more squeaky Hank reed than the masters.

Maybe my attitude about the recording is colored by exposure to the full session and one shouldn't see how the sausage gets made. But I still think the band wasn't gelling that well which is why there were so many takes, so many breakdowns and so few full takes.

Which Grant Green date? And is the Ike Quebec the one with Butch Warren?

[Dan Gould]

45 minutes ago, bertrand said:

I knew that was going to happen.

 

 

Which Grant Green date? And is the Ike Quebec the one with Butch Warren?

I answered above - Yes that is the Quebec date and the Grant Green is Gooden's Corner over two discs. For guitarists only.

[JSngry]

David Weiss telling us that it's in stereo...hell, ok, I bought it.

[david weiss]

On 7/19/2020 at 8:50 PM, Dan Gould said:

My understanding at some point was that Bob Belden was the source for the sessions that escaped - including Ike Quebec, the KD date, and the extended Grant Green date, and that all of these were acquired when he had access to the vaults. I am curious about "different home now" - they made it back to BN or to some other person?

As far as mono goes my transfers are not - close, no major stereo separation, but different peaks. I've never seen a recording that was mono turn into something not quite mono in the digital realm (as in, mono source, extracted as stereo -> still going to be mono.  So David I am not sure of your info and would be interested in further detail.

As for tracking and potential alternates, I have a disc of the master takes listed in the discography and just burned in that order so I guess my version is truly chronological. I would need to listen to the full discs to find these potential alternates, I could swear that the few full takes not labelled as the master take featured more squeaky Hank reed than the masters.

Maybe my attitude about the recording is colored by exposure to the full session and one shouldn't see how the sausage gets made. But I still think the band wasn't gelling that well which is why there were so many takes, so many breakdowns and so few full takes.

Hey Dan,

I'm not sure what the source of your Blakey session tapes were but if they were stereo, it would be major stereo separation, hard pans left and right for the horns, it would be clear. It would be this or mono. Perhaps you should listen to a sample of the new release on line and compare if you like. I'm not sure what you mean about different peaks. I can't go too much into detail but I'm told by more then one person that the source of these were Alfred's sessions reels from where ever they wound up plus I've listened to these as well and they are mono.

I also don't want to get too deep into, let's say, Belden's proclivities regarding the distribution of the tapes but I was working with him then. His entree into the vaults was my telling him about record shows and rappers and DJs and such shopping for vinyl looking for beats. He formulated the Rare Groove Series and was allowed into the vaults to find unreleased groove stuff to release. There was plenty. While there, he ordered a bunch of other stuff up he had been dying for years to hear. Just based on Belden's taste and priorities I can tell you he started by listening to anything unreleased that had Herbie Hancock on it and after that, Grant Green and maybe Larry Young. Those were his favorites. He also was trying to get every album any of those guys every played on and would give me lists in case I saw one when shopping for vinyl myself....

So, do the math. I was there when he came back from LA and we had listening sessions. He wasn't that interested in the Art Blakey session so he was never the source for this. The KD date had Grant Green on it but I don't recall him ever mentioning he had this or him playing for me. But Speak No Evil out takes, Unity out takes, Solid out takes, unreleased Shorter date, unreleased Tyrone Washington date? Yup. And then a few tracks of other things here and there. Aborted Herbie date (the one tune that wound up on the Herbie box) and some break downs and false starts from some of his favorite dates, yup. He didn't circulate any of this stuff for the longest time. I got copies of a few things because I was working for him but at some point, partially out of his general frustration with the music business and such, he started sharing some of this stuff with some of his friends and I guess it blew up. When that Joe Louis guy posted all that stuff on youtube, some of that stuff probably could be traced back to Beldon since he was the only source but most of it was from elsewhere. I don't know who. Belden also was not a huge collector of live tapes except for Miles, Herbie, Wayne and Grant Green essentially... He didn't seek it out at least. I hope this clears a few things up....

On 7/19/2020 at 9:36 AM, Chuck Nessa said:

Rudy's Hackensack studio ran separate mono and stereo machines at 15 ips. He also would run a 7.5 ips machine for reference purposes. When he moved to Englewood Cliffs he discontinued using the dedicated mono deck.

Kind of what I thought. Thanks for clarifying Chuck.

18 hours ago, bertrand said:

On 7/19/2020 at 9:36 AM, Chuck Nessa said:

Rudy's Hackensack studio ran separate mono and stereo machines at 15 ips. He also would run a 7.5 ips machine for reference purposes. When he moved to Englewood Cliffs he discontinued using the dedicated mono deck.

So he still had an extra machine at Englewood Cliffs? But only Coltrane took home copies? I always wondered if Larry Young took home a copy of Mother Ship but I guess not. Blue World was not in the Universal stash, nor at Ravi's, correct, the only copy was in Canada?

 

Who took what home depended on the artist and the label. Coltrane took tapes home as did Miles Davis. Others, I don't know about. Blue Note was in a way producer driven, they were making the decisions (with artist feedback at times) so Alfred took the tapes home. I'm talking the reel to reel years. Once cassettes became the norm and then digital, this dynamic changed, easier to make more copies so more people could bring stuff home to listen to if they wanted to. A number of Coltrane things have seen the light of day because of the session reels Coltrane took home but there have been other sources as well....

[bertrand]

So it is not theoretically impossible that Larry Young took a copy of Mother Ship home?

[JSngry]

A copy? Hell he took the mothership itself home, drove that motherfucker around like it was a Caddy from outer space, which of course, it was.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

1 hour ago, david weiss said:

So, do the math. I was there when he came back from LA and we had listening sessions. He wasn't that interested in the Art Blakey session so he was never the source for this. The KD date had Grant Green on it but I don't recall him ever mentioning he had this or him playing for me. But Speak No Evil out takes, Unity out takes, Solid out takes, unreleased Shorter date, unreleased Tyrone Washington date? Yup. And then a few tracks of other things here and there. Aborted Herbie date (the one tune that wound up on the Herbie box) and some break downs and false starts from some of his favorite dates, yup. He didn't circulate any of this stuff for the longest time. I got copies of a few things because I was working for him but at some point, partially out of his general frustration with the music business and such, he started sharing some of this stuff with some of his friends and I guess it blew up. When that Joe Louis guy posted all that stuff on youtube, some of that stuff probably could be traced back to Beldon since he was the only source but most of it was from elsewhere. I don't know who. Belden also was not a huge collector of live tapes except for Miles, Herbie, Wayne and Grant Green essentially... He didn't seek it out at least. I hope this clears a few things up....

That jives with what I thought. The person who had this Blakey date, played it for me well before he had all of these other unissued Blue Note tapes and that Blakey cassette tape looked very old. It was probably a year later that he called me and told me he finally got a source for the unissued Wayne Shorter date, so it makes sense that he got the Blakey tape from a different source than Belden. I often suspected the he somehow copied the Blakey session himself.

BTW - I never did hear the unissued Shorter date, nor the Tyrone Washington "trainwreck" and I really don't need to.

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

David Weiss telling us that it's in stereo...hell, ok, I bought it.

Yeah, me too. It'll be nice to hear this material in an official release.

Oh hey, I just remembered... It's funny that they chose "Just Coolin'" for the LP title because Cuscuna's discography had that track erroneously listed as "Just Foolin'".

[Chuck Nessa]

On 7/19/2020 at 9:36 AM, Chuck Nessa said:

Rudy's Hackensack studio ran separate mono and stereo machines at 15 ips. He also would run a 7.5 ips machine for reference purposes. When he moved to Englewood Cliffs he discontinued using the dedicated mono deck.

Just to add some more RVG info - When we recorded Roscoe's L-R-G (August 7, 1978) I took home a pair of stereo 7.5 ips reels of the day's work. On May 21, 1979 when we recorded Leo Smith's Spirit Catcher, we were provide with cassettes. Rudy had moved forward.

[david weiss]

26 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Just to add some more RVG info - When we recorded Roscoe's L-R-G (August 7, 1978) I took home a pair of stereo 7.5 ips reels of the day's work. On May 21, 1979 when we recorded Leo Smith's Spirit Catcher, we were provide with cassettes. Rudy had moved forward.

For better or worse, Rudy was an equipment geek and liked to keep current and embraced new technologies, including cassette players apparently. By the time I recorded there in 1992 or 93, we recorded digital and he used a bass direct and such. It was a bit of a disappointment. He did send us home with a reference cassette though.... I'll be recording there next week by the way....

[Chuck Nessa]

42 minutes ago, david weiss said:

For better or worse, Rudy was an equipment geek and liked to keep current and embraced new technologies, including cassette players apparently. By the time I recorded there in 1992 or 93, we recorded digital and he used a bass direct and such. It was a bit of a disappointment. He did send us home with a reference cassette though.... I'll be recording there next week by the way....

When we recorded the aforementioned Leo Smith date, Wes Brown refused to be recorded directly and Rudy came up with a mike.

[JSngry]

How asamant was the cat about not using the direct? Did he have to push for it, or was Rudy amenable with the first ask?

[Chuck Nessa]

45 minutes ago, JSngry said:

How asamant was the cat about not using the direct? Did he have to push for it, or was Rudy amenable with the first ask?

He just said "you aren't going to attach anything to my instrument" and Rudy moved on.

[david weiss]

41 minutes ago, JSngry said:

How asamant was the cat about not using the direct? Did he have to push for it, or was Rudy amenable with the first ask?

I've heard various stories. It depended on the artist, the producer or the label. He could certainly be talked into things especially if he liked you. I've known guys that have gotten him to pull out old mics and yes, mic the bass (but in my case, keep the direct as well).

[Eric]

Not to derail a fascinating discussion, but bought this one twice.  PM me if interested.  I will charge $4 for S&H, US only.  Nothing for the CD.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

3 hours ago, david weiss said:

For better or worse, Rudy was an equipment geek and liked to keep current and embraced new technologies, including cassette players apparently. By the time I recorded there in 1992 or 93, we recorded digital and he used a bass direct and such. It was a bit of a disappointment. He did send us home with a reference cassette though.... I'll be recording there next week by the way....

youre doing what,  were, when?  ok beacuse of covid i can get a round trip for $250 .  As long as I can secure a non-Boeing flight, I'd do it.  Can I be your sheet music caddy for the day.  I promise I won't say anything to Maureen. No I'm just joking dawg, but look I'm glad its being used and I just hope its being treated well. 

4 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Just to add some more RVG info - When we recorded Roscoe's L-R-G (August 7, 1978) I took home a pair of stereo 7.5 ips reels of the day's work. On May 21, 1979 when we recorded Leo Smith's Spirit Catcher, we were provide with cassettes. Rudy had moved forward.

that is very interesting- kind of like knowing when rudys last simultaneous mono and stereo recordings were etc

I don't think I've heard the speak no evil outtakes.....

so the released just coolin is in stereo?

[david weiss]

1 hour ago, chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez said:

youre doing what,  were, when?  ok beacuse of covid i can get a round trip for $250 .  As long as I can secure a non-Boeing flight, I'd do it.  Can I be your sheet music caddy for the day.  I promise I won't say anything to Maureen. No I'm just joking dawg, but look I'm glad its being used and I just hope its being treated well. 

that is very interesting- kind of like knowing when rudys last simultaneous mono and stereo recordings were etc

I don't think I've heard the speak no evil outtakes.....

so the released just coolin is in stereo?

We'll take pictures....

The Cookers are recording there next week for two days.

The Speak No Evil out takes (most of them) were included in the Blue Note 75th anniversary Japanese reissue of the album if you can find it. 

They're great.

Just Coolin' is in stereo.

Edited July 21, 2020 by david weiss

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

2 hours ago, david weiss said:

We'll take pictures....

The Cookers are recording there next week for two days.

The Speak No Evil out takes (most of them) were included in the Blue Note 75th anniversary Japanese reissue of the album if you can find it. 

They're great.

Just Coolin' is in stereo.

cool have a good experience you have been busting your hump in jazz a long time theres a reason its you on the gig and not chewy & jsngry's spoken word audiobook.  We also hope its not extra difficult due to covid.  Thats amazing the outtakes were put on a cd reissue, Japan only?  BN should be doing more of that kind of stuff, and in the US......Ill put that on the "ask don was next time" list. I am interested in Just Coolin' now.......so we are actually getting a completely new unreleased product afterall.............thats what Don meant when he told me "Stay Tuned".......we were walking to the bus and security were like ok don will do whatever u want and see u later and i was walking the whole length with him and i was all Don we gotta go back in the vaults and put out some of the unreleased stuff, and he was all "stay tuned"

Edited July 21, 2020 by chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez

[JSngry]

Amazon delivers in a big hurry...yeah, this one cleaned up real nice! I actually envy people hearing this for the first time, w/o having heard the "backstory" of the full session!

[bertrand]

Regarding the composer of Jimerick: in addition to the fact that it kinda sounds like a Lee tune, albeit one that was just put together in the studio at the 11th hour (were they low on material?), I thought of another possible clue: the title may be a nod to Lee's siblings JIMmy, ERnestine and (Otto) RICardo. Not implausible, but maybe not enough to start sending royalties to the proper parties, which as of this writing, is his wife Kiko (they never formally divorced).

Bertrand.

Edited July 21, 2020 by bertrand